Find Page One on APPLE PODCASTS or STITCHER.
Episode image is a detail from the cover of The Danikil Diary by Wilfred Thesiger, published by Harper Collins.
For the 72nd Second Hand Book Factory, Charles Adrian is joined in Zürich by Englishman Will Ellis (and, almost inaudibly, by his wife Agnes) to talk about a couple of confident explorers and whether or not Will speaks Spanish.
For anyone wondering what is meant by ‘CCF’ towards the end of the episode, you can read more about the Combined Cadet Force on Wikipedia here. ‘Duke of Edinburgh’ in the same part of the episode refers to the Duke of Edinburgh’s Award, which you can read about on Wikipedia here.
This episode has been edited to remove music that is no longer covered by licence for this podcast.
This episode features a jingle written for the podcast by the band Friends Of Friends.
A transcript of this episode is below.
Episode released: 14th April, 2015.
Book listing:
A Short Walk In The Hindu Kush by Eric Newby
The Danakil Diary by Wilfred Thesiger
Any Human Heart by William Boyd
Links:
Episode transcript:
Charles Adrian
Okay. Are you ready?
Will Ellis
Yes.
Charles Adrian
Are you going to be distracted by Agnes?
Will Ellis
She is a terrible distraction [indistinct].
Agnes
Really?
Will Ellis
Unfortunately we can't actually get rid of her because she's my wife.
Agnes and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Will Ellis
She, kind of, comes now as part of the package.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] You're contractually bound. [laughs]
Agnes
Do you want me to go?
Will Ellis
No, darling, you stay.
Agnes
I'm just going to sit here and look pretty.
Agnes, Will and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Will Ellis
Oh good.
Charles Adrian
And do some rustling from time to time. [laughs]
Will Ellis
Don't rustle.
Charles Adrian
So I'm starting now. Is that okay?
Will Ellis
Yes. Start, Charles.
Charles Adrian
Good. Good. Hello and welcome to the 96th Page One. This is the 72nd Second Hand Book Factory. You look amazed by that, Will.
Will Ellis
I am. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
Yeah. I've done ninety-six of these. I'm Charles Adrian and my guest this week—in Zürich—is Will Ellis.
Jingle
You're listening to Page One, The book podcast.
Charles Adrian
Hello Will.
Will Ellis
Hello Charles.
Charles Adrian
Thank you so much for having me to stay in your flat.
Will Ellis
Not at all. Lovely to have you here.
Charles Adrian
It's very kind of you. Well, I should say kind of both of you. Thank you, silent Agnes next to me.
Agnes and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
How do you describe yourself, Will?
Will Ellis
So I'm an Englishman living in Zürich in Switzerland. We're currently in the quarter of Wiedikon, which is...
Charles Adrian
Uh huh. [trying a Swiss accent] ‘Wiedikon’, they said in the train.
Will Ellis
[speaking over] [copying pronunciation] ‘Wiedikon’. Yes, exactly. That's probably said with a beautiful Swiss accent, Charles.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] That's... it sounded more like a French word somehow. Or a, kind of, combination of an Italian word and a French... It sounded like Via di Kohn.
Will and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Will Ellis
True, it is. It is, but I've ended up here after a bit of a travel around. So [I] grew up in Salisbury, Wiltshire, in the south of England. Close to Stonehenge. Then, after completing university at Exeter, I then moved to Guernsey, in the Channel Islands. And then from that tax... low-tax jurisdiction...
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Will Ellis
... I ended up moving to Switzerland with its beautiful mountains. As a keen skier, it seemed to be a great place to live.
Charles Adrian
And we... Because we worked out... Well, I asked you last night, didn't I, how long you've been away. It's something like eleven years you've been out of the UK.
Will Ellis
Yeah, it's quite a long time now and... but I still have...
Charles Adrian
You haven't lost anything of your Englishness.
Will Ellis
I still have the, you know, Yorkshire tea in my cupboard.
Charles Adrian
Yes.
Will Ellis
I still have homemade marmalade shipped in from my parents. And what are the other important things? Little pot of Marmite as well.
Charles Adrian
Oh yeah, Marmite. Very important.
Will Ellis
And a love of apple crumble, which I made last night.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yes. Mmm. Delicious. Thank you.
Will and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
Lovely. So that's... that's... So that's your description. You're a... You're a, kind of, travelling... You're an itinerant Englishman.
Will Ellis
Itinerant but actually now I'm a management consultant with Deloitte Consulting here. So helping the banks—in theory—get out of their mess.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Will Ellis
So that's what I'm doing,
Charles Adrian
Just giving them a little handout. Well, a hand up. What's the word?
Will Ellis
Well...
Charles Adrian
A little...
Will Ellis
An assisting hand.
Charles Adrian
... nudge in the right direction.
Will Ellis
Exactly.
Charles Adrian
Mmm. Okay. What's the book that you've brought that you like?
Will Ellis
Okay. So the book is called A Short Walk in the Hindu Kush. It's by a man called Eric Newby. Have you heard of that?
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Who I've never heard of. No. No, I haven't.
Will Ellis
Okay, so this guy—absolutely fascinating—at the age of 18 he went down to... he was in one of the last tall ship races and it was... I think it was shipping... I'm not sure [if] it was the grain race or the tea race but anyway from, I think, South Africa or somewhere like that. And he's a ship hand on one of these enormous tall ships—like the Cutty Sark.
Charles Adrian
Right.
Will Ellis
And he sails all the way up to Britain.
Charles Adrian
When would this have been?
Will Ellis
So that would have been in, sort of, I think, [the] 1920s... a bit after that.
Charles Adrian
They still had tall ships then? I had no idea.
Will Ellis
[speaking over] But it was literally one of the last ones.
Charles Adrian
Right. Right. Huh.
Will Ellis
Then, later on, it gets to the Second World War, where he has quite an adventurous time and he's taken prisoner in Italy. And then he escapes and he ends up living in the Apennines and meeting his future wife. But this is just after the Second World War when this book takes place because, having had this incredibly adventurous start in life, he ends up working in his family business—which is fashion—which he doesn't really seem to enjoy. And he's this great adventurer. Something which I'd like to consider myself as being despite living in Zürich, Switzerland.
Charles Adrian
[laughing] Right.
Will Ellis
But he's this adventurous chap and he gets this invitation from a friend of his who is about to take up a position in the diplomatic... well, in the... what do you call it? In the... Not the ambassador but the...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Consulate?
Will Ellis
[speaking over] In the Embassy.
Charles Adrian
Oh. In the Embassy. Okay.
Will Ellis
in Iran.
Charles Adrian
Oh!
Will Ellis
And his friend says, ‘How about going on a short trip? Why don't we do some mountaineering?’ Neither of these two guys have any idea of mountaineering but they decide they want to have an adventure.
Charles Adrian
Yeah.
Will Ellis
They want to go and investigate the Karakoram mountain range, which is in...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Ah! Which is where Lost Horizon is supposed to be set, I think.
Will Ellis
I don't know but it's...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Possibly.
Will Ellis
Somewhere...
Charles Adrian
[indistinct] was a mysterious, mystical high Himalayas.
Will Ellis
Exactly. So it's, sort of, nowadays Afghanistan.
Charles Adrian
Okay. Oh really? Okay.
Will Ellis
[speaking over] And with absolutely no experience they go off and it's a wonderful adventure of just...
Charles Adrian
Wow.
Will Ellis
... madness. But a lot of fun and the book makes you laugh a lot.
Charles Adrian
And is it... So is the book... The book isn't a novel? It's an account of his journey?
Will Ellis
It's an account of his journey. Absolutely.
Charles Adrian
Right. Oh, read the first page.
Will Ellis
Yes, so it starts off and it's describing his everyday life. So it has nothing really to do with the rest of the book.
Charles Adrian
That's okay.
Will Ellis
And the title of the first page is called...
CHAPTER ONE
Life of a Salesman
WITH all the lights on and the door shut to protect us from the hellish draught that blew up the backstairs, the fitting-room was like an oven with mirrors. There were four of us jammed in it: Hyde-Clarke, the designer; Milly, a very contemporary model girl with none of the normal protuberances; the sour-looking fitter in whose workroom the dress was being made; and Newby.
Things were not going well. It was the week before the showing of the 1956 Spring Collection, a time when the vendeuses crouched behind her [sic] little cream and gold desks, doodling furiously, and the Directors swooped through the vast empty...
Charles Adrian
Ha ha!
Will Ellis
And that is the end of the first page.
Charles Adrian
Oh. Well, that's interesting. So that's the normality from which he springs. Wow, I'm really happy that you brought that and I'll tell you why in a bit. But I'm going to play some music now and I... So you should recognise this.
Will Ellis
Okay.
Charles Adrian
I'm not going to tell you what it is. I think you'll recognise it.
Music
[Breathe by Midge Ure]
Charles Adrian
So that was Midge Ure with Breathe.
Will Ellis
I love it, Charles. That reminds me of our studies in Florence back in 19...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Our Florence days.
Will Ellis
When would it be?
Charles Adrian
It would have been... I think that that song must have come out in 1997.
Will Ellis
And it was probably in two thousand and something we were there. 2000?
Charles Adrian
No. You... No, it wasn't. It was 1997, 1998.
Will Ellis
[speaking over] Really? God, the previous century. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
It's a [laughing] long time ago. We've known each other for... what is that? Seventeen years?
Will Ellis
Sounds about right.
Charles Adrian
I can't do the maths in my head. Now... And while we were listening to that you were telling me about this guy's training. The guy Newby.
Will Ellis
Eric Newby, yeah.
Charles Adrian
So you said he went to Wales to train.
Will Ellis
Yeah. So exactly. So this guy has... So he gets this invitation from this friend of his, [who] says, ‘Right, why don't we go to the Himalayas? Let's do some climbing. Let's go to the Karakoram mountain range and scale a peak.’ No mountaineering experience.
Charles Adrian
Yeah.
Will Ellis
So his friend sends him a list and tells him to go to Lillywhites and buy all this equipment. And then they book a weekend in Wales and learn some mountaineering.
Charles Adrian
[laughing] This is, like, just absurd.
Will Ellis
And the mountain guide there says, ‘You're... you know, you're absolutely mad but we'll teach you a few things.’
Charles Adrian
[laughing] [indistinct] weekend.
Will Ellis
And so they have three days.
Charles Adrian
Yeah.
Will Ellis
And then—I suppose a few months later—they travel overland to Afghanistan where they... you know, with all this equipment. Lots of exciting things happen on the way. And then they hire a mule train somewhere outside Kabul and end up heading into the high passes to this peak they want to climb.
Charles Adrian
Yeah. And then you said, ‘And they bumped into Thesiger’.
Will Ellis
Yes.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yes? So, okay, I brought you a book by Wilfred Thesiger.
Will Ellis
Oh, right! Okay.
Charles Adrian
Weirdly.
Will Ellis
Yeah. [indistinct]
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] I mean, it's not completely randomly. I did... I gave you a previous book by him. I gave you Across the Empty Quarter.
Will Ellis
Okay.
Charles Adrian
Years ago. Years ago.
Will Ellis
Exactly. And from that I actually read The Road to Oxiana. Is that him?
Charles Adrian
Oh, did you? I don't know. I've only read these two books. I'm hoping you haven't read this one.
Will Ellis
I haven't read that one.
Charles Adrian
And so this is The Danakil Diary. His father was... Well, I'm going to read you the introduction so it tells you basically what the situation is. So:
INTRODUCTION
DURING THE SUMMER VACATION of 1930, my first year at Oxford University, I worked my passage as a fireman on a cargo boat to Constantinople. On my return home to The Milebrook I found two letters waiting for me. One was a personal invitation from Ras Tafari to attend his coronation as the Emperor Haile Selassie of Ethiopia, in November 1930. My father had been British Minister in charge of the Legation – today's Embassy – at Addis Ababa from 1909–1919. He had died in 1920 and Ras Tafari had sent me, his eldest son, this invitation to his coronation – the only personal invitation he sent to anyone. The other was a notification from the Foreign Office that I had been appointed Honorary Attaché to [His Royal Highness] the Duke of Gloucester, who would represent his father, King George V, at the coronation.
I was born in the legation in 1910 and spent my childhood, until I was nearly nine, in Abyssinia, as Ethiopia was called in those days. It was an extraordinary childhood and I am convinced that the events in which I was involved and the sights which I saw during those years had a permanent effect on the rest of my life.
My father, accompanied by my mother, travelling with animal transport, arrived in Addis Ababa in December 1909. With its people inheriting a civilization as old as that of Egypt, and a Christian faith dating back to the 4th century AD, Abyssinia resembled no other country in Africa or anywhere else.
When my parents arrived, the new Legation was still being built. At first, they lived in circular, grass-roofed tukuls or mud huts, in one of which I was born; these tukuls still stand there today, a hundred years after they were built. I was the eldest of four brothers and, during the years we were in Abyssinia, there were no other European children to keep me company. Over the years I relied increasingly on my brother Brian, who was one year my junior, for companionship. We had...
There it goes on. So, this was published in 1996, I think.
Will Ellis
Golly.
Charles Adrian
But it's just this... this confidence that he has. I mean, he's 20 when he goes to the coronation—and he describes going to the coronation—but then I think when he finishes Oxford he decides, ‘Oh wait, no one's really explored this country full of very dangerous Danakil people ever’. You know, no... Well, I say nobody's ever explored. No white people has [sic] ever mapped—because that was the big obsession, wasn't it, in those days. Nobody's ever mapped this country. And there's a river which starts at one end and doesn't come out the other end and he wants to know what's going on with this. And people have tried in the past to map it and they haven't come out alive. So he decides [laughing] at 23 years old he's just going to do that. [He's] going to go in, see what happens. And it's just the most extraordinary arrogance, I think—or confidence, depending on which way you look at it. But it seems to be shared by, you know, people like Newby and Lawrence.
Will Ellis
But do you think nowadays we know too much and we worry too much so we're not going to go there?
Charles Adrian
Maybe we do.
Will Ellis
All these foreign office warnings: Don't go there, it's dangerous.
Charles Adrian
Yes.
Will Ellis
Because, you know, I know this chap carries on his extraordinary life and he crosses the Empty Quarter and then later on he goes and he lives with...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yes. I mean, that's also an extraordinary story.
Will Ellis
... the Marsh Arabs...
Charles Adrian
Yes. Yes.
Will Ellis
... you know, north of Basra.
Charles Adrian
Yes.
Will Ellis
... in this, sort of, wilderness that's there. And...
Charles Adrian
And he just assumes he can make it work—which he obviously could. I mean, he survives.
Will Ellis
[speaking over] But I think one of the ways he integrated with the locals—or to make himself useful—was he did bring some... certainly later on he brought some medical knowledge. And so that brought trust with the locals.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yes. Yes. Well, he's obviously... I mean, you get the impression from this book that he's very, very good at building bridges with people. You know, there's a really hairy section where he's going to meet an important chief and he's obviously an excellent diplomat.
Will Ellis
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
And so, you know, it all works out. But I'm giving that to you.
Will Ellis
[speaking over] Thank you very much.
Charles Adrian
I hope you enjoy it.
Will Ellis
[speaking over] I look forward to reading that.
Charles Adrian
And what's the book that you're going to eventually one day give to me maybe... hopefully... perhaps.
Will Ellis
[speaking over] Give to you. Okay, the book is called Any Human Heart.
Charles Adrian
Uh huh. Which, yeah, I've heard of. Yes.
Will Ellis
And it's by William Boyd. And it's a book I read quite recently. And it's about a chap growing up and it follows his life from his childhood right the way through to his death.
Charles Adrian
Okay.
Will Ellis
And it describes his, yeah, childhood growing up and then going to public school and doing things like CCF, which I think we both did.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Oh! CCF. No, I avoided CCF. I did Duke of Edinburgh instead.
Will Ellis
Very, very wise decision.
Charles Adrian
[laughs] I wasn't going to skin rabbits.
Will Ellis
And then he's quite an artist—a bit like yourself—so he's got this, sort of, creative side to him.
Charles Adrian
[laughing] Right.
Will Ellis
And he ends up meeting all these famous people in history, you know, through his art. You know, meeting... I don't know, Picasso and these different characters. And working in New York and... And he's not a glamorous figure. He's not a hero. And, you know, he's got a series of, kind of... It's more like real life, you know? He meets these glorious girls and they don't fall in love with him or he... You know, it's nothing particularly spectacular but it's just a wonderful, wonderfully engaging story. And, you know, at the end, he... I have to say, he does die, as we all will do.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Right. Right. Well, yes, if it's his whole life, you'd imagine that might be what happens.
Will Ellis
[speaking over] But it's just this incredibly beautiful life.
Charles Adrian
Oh, lovely! Well... Yeah. Read the first page.
Will Ellis
And so the first page is really his beginnings, which were in Uruguay.
“Yo Logan,” I wrote. “Yo Logan Mountstuart. Vivo en la Villa Flores, Avenida de Brazil, Montevideo, Uruguay, America del Sur, El Mundo, El Sistema Solar, El Universo.”
These were the first words I wrote – or, to be more precise, this is the earliest record of my writing and the beginning of my writing life. Words that were inscribed on the fly leaf of an indigo pocket diary for the year 1912, which I still possess and whose pages are otherwise void. I was six years old. It intrigues me now to reflect that my first written words were in a language not of my own. My lost fluency in Spanish is probably my greatest regret about my otherwise perfectly happy childhood. The serviceable, error-dotted, grammatically unsophisticated Spanish that I speak to day is the poorest of poor cousins to that instinctive colloquial...
And there the first page ends.
Charles Adrian
Very nice. I'd forgotten you... yeah, you studied Spanish, didn't you? That sounded very good, the Spanish.
Will Ellis
No, I studied Italian, Charles, like you.
Charles Adrian
No, but you studied Spanish before.
Will Ellis
No, I didn't.
Charles Adrian
Never?
Will Ellis
No, not at all.
Charles Adrian
So, why did you always...? You always ended up speaking Spanish... When we were first learning... Sorry, if this is indiscreet...
Will Ellis
Okay.
Charles Adrian
[laughs] I remember you used to slip into Spanish.
Will Ellis
Maybe I thought that was similar to Italian.
Charles Adrian
[laughs] I assumed you'd studied it at school.
Will Ellis
No! No, no, not at all.
Charles Adrian
Because my go-to gap filler was always French. If I couldn't think of a word, the French word would arrive.
Will Ellis
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
And I think for you it was Spanish.
Will Ellis
I think if you just try and make something into the... a word which you know and make it sound a bit foreign, sometimes you might get away with it.
Charles Adrian
Yeah, it didn't work for me the other way around, unfortunately, when I was in Chile and I was trying to make myself... I was only trying to ask When does the bus arrive in San Pedro or somewhere and the guy had no idea... And I thought, ‘Come on! I'm speaking a kind of Spanish Italian here, you must have some sense of what I'm saying.’ But he just kept saying, ‘Yeah, we're leaving soon’. [And] I'm like, [laughing] ‘That's not what I'm asking you!’
Will Ellis
Certainly, with my wife, when she said she had some Spanish friends coming over I said, ‘It's fine, I speak Spanish’.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Will Ellis
And I rapidly discovered that I didn't speak Spanish. My Spanish was really...
Charles Adrian
Oh so that's... Maybe that's what has killed your confidence.
Will Ellis
It has, I think. And I think confidence is important with languages.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] That's sad. Yeah, that's... It's definitely seventy-five percent of the battle. What's the song that you're playing us out with?
Will Ellis
I don't know. We need to add that. We don't know [indistinct] yet.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] We don't know what the title is?
Will Ellis
No.
Charles Adrian
Do we have any sense of what it might be called? Or who it's by?
Will Ellis
Maybe we should get a... Maybe we should get another music. What shall we play?
sound
[Music starts playing faintly]
Will Ellis
Do you know this song?
Charles Adrian
This is... Yeah, I love this song.
Will Ellis
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
But wait. Before you play it, introduce it.
Will Ellis
[speaking over] Okay, we need to...
sound
[music stops]
Will Ellis
Okay. So... Let's think. Is it called My Doorbell?
Charles Adrian
I think it might be.
Will Ellis
Yeah, it's called My Doorbell. Okay, so this song is called My Doorbell by The White Stripes and the reason I like it so much is because I have a great problem waking up in the mornings and this is how I want to be when I wake up—kind of, full of energy and just bursting out the door.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Will Ellis
So... So here we go.
Music
[My Doorbell by The White Stripes]
Charles Adrian
Hello. Charles Adrian here. Normally, that would be the end of the podcast but as a kind of bonus I thought I would give you a little bit of Eric Newby's account of meeting Wilfred Thesiger [/θesɪdʒə/]—or Thesiger [/θesɪgə/]—whose face, incidentally, is the image attached to this episode of the podcast on the website pageonepodcast.com. So you can go and have a look at him if you're interested. Here is Will reading from A Short Walk in the Hindu Kush by Eric Newby.
Will Ellis
We crossed the river by a bridge, went up through the village of Shahnaiz and downhill towards the lower Panjshir.
“Look,” said Hugh, “it must be Thesiger.”
Coming towards us out of the great gorge where the river thundered was a small caravan like our own. He named an English explorer, a remarkable throwback to the Victorian era, a fluent speaker of Arabic, a very brave man, who has twice crossed the Empty Quarter and, apart from a few weeks every year, has passed his entire life among primitive peoples.
...
The party consisted of two villainous-looking tribesmen dressed like royal mourners in long overcoats reaching to their [sic] ankles; a shivering Tajik cook, to whom some strange mutation had given bright red hair, unsuitably dressed for Central Asia in crippling pointed brown shoes and natty socks supported by suspenders, but no trousers; the interpreter, a gloomy-looking middle-class Afghan in a coma of fatigue, wearing dark glasses, a double-breasted lounge suit and an American hat with stitching all over it; and Thesiger himself, a great long-striding crag of a man, with an outcrop for a nose and bushy eyebrows, forty-five years old and as hard as nails, in an old tweed jacket of the sort worn by Eton boys, a pair of thin grey cotton trousers, rope-soled Persian slippers and a woollen cap comforter.
“Turn round,” he said, “you'll stay the night with us. We're going to kill some chickens.”
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Will Ellis
We tried to explain that we had to get to Kabul, that we wanted our mail, but our men, who professed to understand no English but were reluctant to pass through the gorges at night, had already turned the horses and were making for the collection of miserable hovels that was the nearest village.
Soon we were sitting on a carpet under some mulberry trees, surrounded by the entire population, with all Thesiger's belongings piled up around [sic] us.
“Can't speak a word of the language,” he said cheerfully. “Know a lot of the Koran by heart but not a word of Persian. Still, it's not really necessary. Here you,” he shouted at the cook, who had only entered his service the day before and had never seen another Englishman. “Make some green tea and a lot of chicken and rice—three chickens.”
“No good bothering the interpreter,” he went on, “the poor fellow's got a sty and [sic] that's why we only did seventeen miles today. It's no good doing too much at first, especially as he's not feeling well.”
Charles Adrian
Seventeen miles!
Will Ellis
Yeah. Anyway, it goes on like this. But there's one wonderful...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Amazing!
Will Ellis
This is it. This is the best bit. It's at... So they go to bed at the end.
The ground was like hot [sic] iron with sharp rocks sticking [up] out of it. We started to blow up our air-beds. “God, you must be a couple of pansies,” said Thesiger.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Jingle
Thank you for listening to Page One. For more information about the podcast please go to pageonepodcast.com.
[Initial transcription by https://otter.ai]