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Episode image is a detail from the cover of Haunted by Chuck Palahniuk, published in 2006 by Anchor Books; design: Rodrigo Corral; illustration: Jeff Middleton
Hosting Charles Adrian for the 64th Second Hand Book Factory in her Motel de Nowhere in Bethnal Green is artist and performer Susannah Hewlett. They talk about the effect of abuse in different ways and the push to create nicknames.
Information about Motel de Nowhere is here and you can find out more about Chris Titmas here.
Haunted by Chuck Palahniuk is also discussed in Page One 178.
This episode has been edited to remove music that is no longer covered by licence for this podcast.
This episode features a jingle written for the podcast by the band Friends Of Friends.
A transcript of this episode is below.
Episode released: 15th July, 2014.
Book listing:
Stuart, A Life Backwards by Alexander Masters
The Game by Neil Strauss
Haunted by Chuck Palahniuk
Links:
Episode transcript:
Charles Adrian
Hello and welcome to the 88th Page One. This is the 64th Second Hand Book Factory. I'm Charles Adrian and my guest today at the Hotel de... No, the Motel...
Susannah Hewlett
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
... de Nowhere. Sorry.
Susannah Hewlett
[laughing] The Motel.
Charles Adrian
[laughs] Until you upgrade!
Susannah Hewlett
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
In Bethnal Green is Susanna Hewlett.
Jingle
You're listening to Page One, the book podcast.
Charles Adrian
Hi Sue.
Susannah Hewlett
Hi.
Charles Adrian
Thank you so much for having me in your Motel.
Susannah Hewlett
You're so welcome.
Charles Adrian
It's gorgeous. I love it.
Susannah Hewlett
Oh, thank you. Yeah, everybody does love it when they come through the doors. Most people go, ‘Oh wow, what a lovely space!’ Yeah, I really love it. Hence hanging on to it like the amazing expensive playroom it is. But... [laughs]
Charles Adrian
[laughs] Right? Yes. And it's in a good place. It's right off Bethnal Green High Street. And it's very, very nice altogether.
Susannah Hewlett
And there aren't many... Well, I was just saying as you came in that I had a visit from my landlord with the promise of a rise in the rent in the next month. So, you know, I've kind of hung on to it because it is one of the few places, sort of, still left in this area that... where you can have a studio and... I've had it for about eight years now – part of it – and then a couple of years ago... The back room was my studio and then a couple years ago [I] took over this front space with a view to, sort of, trying to cover the rent by encouraging other people to use it as a, kind of, studio-share, if you like. [pensive] Mmm.
Charles Adrian
Okay. How do you... That takes me to my... the question I ask everybody. How do you describe yourself? Obviously you are a studio-dweller and...
Susannah Hewlett
Yeah, so I suppose...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Ti... Tycoon. Miniature tycoon. [laughs]
Susannah Hewlett
[laughs] Yeah. [laughs] A seller of alcohol through donations behind a tiny bar in the corner. Landlady.
Charles Adrian
[laughs] [speaks over] I think that is defiitely bijou, that bar.
Susannah Hewlett
[laughs] That's Beverly's Very Average Beverage Bar.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Susannah Hewlett
That was named by Steve Nice. So... Actually, you can see there's a list of cocktails. So it includes the Ponce, which is warm milk with a slice of orange.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Susannah Hewlett
Are we allowed to swear on the show?
Charles Adrian
I can put... Yeah, I can put a... I think...
Susannah Hewlett
[speaking over] The bloody BEEP Mary, which is ’mata sauce in a broken glass.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Susannah Hewlett
And Xena's Laugh which is... oh yeah, Monster energy drink with one single frozen raw prawn.
Charles Adrian
Oh my word.
Susannah Hewlett
All for £8.50 each.
Charles Adrian
Yeah. That's... Okay...
Susannah Hewlett
[speaking over] So if you come down to Beverly's Very Average Bar that's what you'll have. But no, I'm not just... I don't just sell booze illegally here. I...
Susannah and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Susannah Hewlett
I suppose I'm formally an artist and performer and self-funder through doing a lot of teaching or community arts projects.
Charles Adrian
Right.
Susannah Hewlett
Yeah. So. For the last four years [I've] been working at St. Joseph's Hospice as the arts coordinator there and before that I worked with sex working women in East London. So, kind of, projects with vunerable people and some of the most exciting people, actually, that I've met in London, so...
Charles Adrian
Oh yeah, that must be interesting. Okay. Well, we will hopefully talk about that one day. I think I'd like to know more about that. But for now, what's the book that you've brought that you... that you like?
Susannah Hewlett
[speaking over] I've brought – [I] don't know if you've read it – Stuart, A Life Backwards...
Charles Adrian
No, I've heard of it but I haven't read it.
Susannah Hewlett
... by Alexander Masters. So it's... I've read it quite a few times and it's... I just love it. I mean, you fall in love with Stuart, which is kind of amazing because he's a psychopath in a way and we're not... No, no, he's... That's unfair actually, I feel [indistinct] say that. But he's... he's a very difficult character who, you know, is described as being very violent. He's very troubled. He is the centre of the book. It's a biography by Alexander Masters and they're a really unlikely pairing. So Alexander was doing a PhD in Cambridge and at the time working in a homeless hostel and was a kind of volunteer, I believe, and meets Stuart. The first time they meet is when Stuart's begging on the street and they have a really, kind of, short encounter. They have a conversation at street level, Kind of, Alexander bends down to talk to him. And Stuart, the first time they meet, says... you know talks about killing himself and how he's going to try and stage it as if he's been murdered because his brother has already killed himself and it would be too much for his mother to bear.
Charles Adrian
Oh my word. Wow.
Susannah Hewlett
So that's Alexander's first encounter with Stuart, who's probably the most honest and, like... Well, he gets described at one point as a deep thinker by somebody that, you know, has housed him at one point during the book. And he really is. He's, like, incredibly intelligent, eloquent, funny, charismatic, charming. You end up fancying him. I mean, it's really complicated.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Interesting. Yes. Yeah.
Susannah Hewlett
And they start this relationship because, at that time these two hostel... well, the director and the co-director of a hospital in Cambridge were arrested and sentenced to five years in prison for allowing, apparently, you know, deals to take place within the hospi... ho... sorry... ho...
Charles Adrian
The hostel.
Susannah Hewlett
... hostel knowingly, which is untrue according to them. And so Stuart and Alexander, kind of, form this campaign – or form part of the campaign – to release these two people that have been sentenced. So it's their journey together and by that Alexander begins to write Stuart's biography.
Charles Adrian
Wow. Read me the first page.
Susannah Hewlett
Stuart does not like the manuscript.
Through the pale Tesco stripes of his supermarket bag I can see the wedge of my papers. Two years’ worth of interviews and literary effort.
‘What's the matter with it?’
‘It's bollocks boring.’
He fumbles in the lumpy bulges of his pockets, looking for roll up papers, then drops into my armchair and pushes his face forward, surveying the drab collection of twigs and dead summertime experiments on my balcony. One arm remains, as it landed, squeezed in beside his thigh. Outside, it is getting dark; the trees in the garden have started to grow in size and lose their untended shapes.
‘I don't mean to be rude. I know you put a lot of work in,’ Stuart offers.
Put briefly, his objection is this: I drone on.
He wants jokes, yarns, humour. He doesn't admire ‘academic quotes’ and background research. ‘Nah, Alexander, you gotta start again. You gotta do better than this.’
He's after a bestseller, ‘like what Tom Clancy writes’.
‘But you are not an assassin trying to frazzle the president with anthrax bombs,’ I point out. You are an ex-homeless, ex-junkie psychopath, I do not add.
Stuart phrases it another way, then: ‘Something what people will read.’
Charles Adrian
[laughs] That's really nice.
Susannah Hewlett
Yeah. And actually – amazingly – it ends just like that on the first page with this...
Charles Adrian
It's perfect.
Susannah Hewlett
It, kind of, sums up really well their relationship. So.
Charles Adrian
That's a nice first page.
Susannah Hewlett
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
And it's nice because obviously, yeah, lots and lots of people have read the book.
Susannah Hewlett
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
So clearly something... something went right as a result of that little conference.
Susannah Hewlett
[speaking over] Yeah, I mean, and then there was an adaptation with Benedict Cumberbatch and Tom Hardy playing Stuart so...
Charles Adrian
And maybe that's why I know the name.
Susannah Hewlett
You may... Yeah, you may have seen it.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yeah, it might be more that.
Susannah Hewlett
It was televised. So. I saw that after read the book and, actually, it's really amazing. I mean, you know sometimes how biopics can be a bit off or you have that feeling of somebody...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yes. Yes. They have a strange shape, apart from anything else. Yeah.
Susannah Hewlett
[affirmative] Mmm. But I think Alexander Masters had some input into it as did Stuart Shorter's family and were all quite... You know, it felt like it was really well done. So, yeah.
Charles Adrian
Ah beautiful. Thank you. Thank you.
Susannah Hewlett
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
Yeah, I should look out for that. I'm going to play the first track that I've picked from... You gave me a list of artists, essentially, and so I've just picked... I picked the Pixies because it gives me an excuse to play...
Susannah Hewlett
Excellent. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
Where Is My Mind, which...
Susannah Hewlett
[speaking over] Oh god. Thank god it's that one.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] ... is such a good track.
Susannah Hewlett
Okay. Good.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Music
[Where Is My Mind by Pixies]
Charles Adrian
So that was Pixies with Where Is My Mind. What did you want to say?
Susannah Hewlett
I just wanted to say quickly about Stuart. So, it's really important… About the book, A Life Backwards. So it's written in reverse. So it unpicks from beginning to end why Stuart has become the man he is.
Charles Adrian
I see. Yes.
Susannah Hewlett
So things are revealed in reverse and it's just such an amazing insight into abuse, neglect, crime, why he ends up having, you know, a major personality disorder essentially and... and how interesting that is in terms of everything that we see in the news, the psychology of people, and how you have to wind it back and back and back.
Charles Adrian
Right. Yes. Yes.
Susannah Hewlett
And that exploration of, kind of... yeah, abuse through childhood. It's really quite... It's, yeah, amazing, heartbreaking and just a real insight. It's brilliant.
Charles Adrian
Okay, wonderful. Now, I'm giving you something which I think... personally, I also see it as a story of abuse but that's not how it's written. It's The Game by Neil Strauss. Do you know this?
Susannah Hewlett
No, I don't.
Charles Adrian
It's really for Chris Titmus...
Susannah Hewlett
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
... because I think...
Susannah Hewlett
[laughing] Oh!
Charles Adrian
For all his bluster, I don't think Chris is much of a hit with the ladies. Am I right about that or...?
Susannah Hewlett
Yeah, he's delusional in that sense. [indistinct]
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] And I think he would. I think he would feel like he would benefit from this book.
Susannah Hewlett
[speaking over] Oh, amazing. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
I think... I mean, I'm fascinated by this. I read it.
Susannah Hewlett
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
I was... [laughing] I was... It was... I was preparing for a project that I was doing last year and I thought... suddenly... something about it seemed relevant. We were talking about self... development of self, description of self, and so on. And this is... it's about pickup artists.
Susannah Hewlett
Oh, I cannot... How amazing!
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] So it's really all about manipulation. And there's something... Because what they're doing is trying to find... They're trying to exaggerate traits that are authentic. So it is interesting because they are not... they're not completely... You know, they do look at themselves very honestly. And they say, you know, ‘I am fat or I am bald or I am... you know, I'm unsuccessful for these reasons and this is what I can emphasise in order to make myself stand out and therefore become... start to become more successful sexually’. But the thinking behind it... I mean, it's very much a gamer mentality. It's very much about numbers. It's very much about, you know, success. It's not about really engaging with people. Neil Strauss sells himself as somebody who engages with the women that he sleeps with but whether or not you really believe that is up to you.
Susannah Hewlett
I'm so exci... That's amazing.
Charles Adrian
So it is... I mean, even the... It's quite funny. The cover illustration shows him looking very suave and really rather handsome and when you look him up on Google you'll find that he's a [laughing] little bit less prepossessing than that. You can find... And the other amazing thing is there are pictures of all of the characters... You can see... You can find photographs of them. They're real people. ‘Step One’ This is the beginning of the book. Step One is called Select a Target.
Susannah Hewlett
[disgusted sound]
Charles Adrian
I mean, even the language they use is horrendous. Okay.
MEET MYSTERY
The house was a disaster.
Doors were split and smashed off their hinges; walls were dented in the shape of fists, phones, and flowerpots; Herbal was hiding in a hotel room scared for his life; and Mystery was collapsed on the living room carpet crying. He'd been crying for two days straight.
This wasn't a normal kind of crying. Ordinary tears are understandable. But Mystery was beyond understanding. He was out of control. For a week, he'd been vacillating between periods of extreme anger and violence, and jags of fitful, cathartic sobbing. And now he was threatening to kill himself.
There were five of us living in the house: Herbal, Mystery, Papa, Playboy, and me. Boys and men came from every corner of the globe to shake our hands, take photos with us, learn from us, be us. They called me Style. It was a name I had earned.
We never used our real names—only our aliases. Even our mansion, like the others we had spawned everywhere from San Francisco to Sydney, had a nickname. It was Project Hollywood. And Project Hollywood was in shambles.
The sofas and dozens of throw pillows lining the floor of the sunken living room were fetid and discoloured with the sweat of men and the juices of women. The white carpet had gone gray from the constant traffic of young, perfumed humanity herded in off Sunset Boulevard every night. Cigarette butts and used condoms floated grimly in the Jacuzzi. And Mystery's rampage during the last few...
There you go. I mean, it's grim.
Susannah Hewlett
Ah!
Charles Adrian
It's grim. And I mean the... the...
Susannah Hewlett
That is amazing.
Charles Adrian
... the shooting that happened in America recently has been very much linked to this PUI [sic] culture. You can see why. You can see how it happens. These people are very disturbed. And the way that they see reality is very disturbing. The way that they write about their experiences... they are clearly damaged.
Susannah Hewlett
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
And I think that's the reason why they're attracted to this kind of... You know, they're looking to bolster their self esteem, essentially. But they're looking... they're also looking for someone to blame on the whole and the people to blame are the women who are not giving them attention.
Susannah Hewlett
[speaking over] Yes absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Charles Adrian
And that's... And the... And the men...
Susannah Hewlett
[speaking over] It's so interesting.
Charles Adrian
And the men who are more successful than they are. And that's... it... that... that is horrific. But it... I mean, it's a very engaging story. It's beautifully told. He's a journalist who originally [laughs] was just... He persuaded... I can't remember who he was working for... Rolling Stone, possibly? Someone [sic] like that. And he persuaded them to pay for him to go and write an article about these guys. And so he, kind of... he went in as a, you know... so it was slightly Gonzo at the beginning, and then he just becomes one of the most [laughing] successful and famous pickup artists. So I think you're going to like it.
Susannah Hewlett
[speaking over] Amazing. Thank you. Chris will love it. I've been... sorry, he, Chris, has been writing his...
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Susannah Hewlett
... self help guide recently, called...
Charles Adrian
Oh wow.
Susannah Hewlett
I'm Chris Titmus And I Know How I Feel.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Susannah Hewlett
It's bascially based around his narcissistic...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] That is beautiful.
Susannah Hewlett
So I was reading some of the chapter titles out when I did this performance at John Walter's thing at the Whitstable Biennial...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Right. In Whitstable.
Susannah Hewlett
... and it ended with Chris staging a heroic act whereby I saved this blow... sorry [tuts], he saved this blow up doll...
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Susannah Hewlett
... called The Revenge Doll from the sea and got people to take photos of him. So he's seen coming out of the water carrying this woman, you know? And then was getting everyone to, ‘Tweet it! Tweet it! Hashtag HERO! Hashtag HOT WOMAN! Hashtag...’ You know, getting really... He's, like, ego-maniacal but incredibly vulnerable as well. That's what I'm trying to explore with him at the moment. So.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yeah, there's a real sweetness to him.
Susannah Hewlett
Yeah, people are really fond of him because he's not a... I don't think anyone's an outright... you know...
Charles Adrian
No. No, that's right.
Susannah Hewlett
... C U N T but it's... That's what I'm interested in, is why and how those... how, kind of, weird psychologies develop in people. I find it fascinating. And people who yield [sic] power over others.
Charles Adrian
Yes.
Susannah Hewlett
Narcissism thing. Like, the striving for... So thank you. That's so brilliant. Thank you so much.
Charles Adrian
And what have you brought for me?
Susannah Hewlett
I've brought... I really dithered but it's going to be [anticipatory sound] Middlesex.
Charles Adrian
Oh, cool. Okay.
Susannah Hewlett
[speaking over] Have you read it?
Charles Adrian
I have read it.
Susannah Hewlett
You have read it? Do you want me to do a switcheroo?
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Give me the other one. Yeah.
Susannah Hewlett
Okay.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Susannah Hewlett
All right. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
Only because... yeah, I don't want to reread Middlesex particularly.
Susannah Hewlett
[speaking over] Yeah. So...
Charles Adrian
That's the first time I have rejected a book. I feel...
Susannah Hewlett
[speaking over] Wow,
Charles Adrian
I feel...
Susannah Hewlett
You feel good?
Charles Adrian
... weird about it but...
Susannah Hewlett
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
... let's go with this one. This looks good.
Susannah Hewlett
[speaking over] Have you read Haunted?
Charles Adrian
No, I've never read anything by him.
Susannah Hewlett
[speaking over] Okay. This is Chuck Palahniuk. So most people know him for Fight Club.
Charles Adrian
Right. Which I love. The film I love but I've never read anything by him.
Susannah Hewlett
Haunted is probably... I loved it because it delves into this, sort of, peculiar other world. Basically, it's about a bunch of people who go on a, sort of, writing retreat but it disintegrates into this world of sickness, basically. So he wr... And, actually, I was going to say about Middlesex that I haven't read it for six years and the same with Haunted. I know it's one of my favourite books of all time and it's resonated with me. And the first story in it – because each of the people on this retreat tell a story about themselves, they all have these peculiar names – and Saint Gut-Free is an unforgettable story. I mean, I won't tell you what happens. I'm not reading something from it now, am I?
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yes, read the first page.
Susannah Hewlett
Oh okay. Okay.
Charles Adrian
Go ahead. Go ahead.
Susannah Hewlett
Okay. [clears throat]
This was supposed to be a writers’ retreat. It was supposed to be safe.
An isolated writers’ colony, where we would all [sic] work,
run by an old, old, dying man named Whittier,
until it wasn't.
And we were supposed to write poetry. Pretty poetry.
This crowd of us, his gifted students,
locked away from the ordinary world for three months.
And we called each other the “Matchmaker.” And the “Missing Link.”
Or “Mother Nature.” Silly labels. Free-association names.
The same way—when you were little—you invented names for the plants and
animals in your world. You called peonies—sticky with nectar and crawling with
ants—the “ant flower.” You called collies: Lassie Dogs.
But even now, the same way you still call someone “that man with one leg.'“ Or, “you know, the black girl...”
We called each other:
The “Earl of Slander.”
Charles Adrian
Nice. I like it. I particularly like it because I was on a silent meditation retreat recently and I noticed that I was doing that. That the people around me...
Susannah Hewlett
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
Because we weren't supposed to be making eye contact with each other – we were supposed to be really on our own – but of course you're looking at the other people on the course. And several of them got nicknames very, very quickly.
Susannah Hewlett
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
And I haven't done that [laughing] for years and years. But when you don't know what people are called...
Susannah Hewlett
Yeah, yeah. No, you do... Yeah, of course.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] ... you just do that. And I think we do it probably... We do it when we're on the train and we see somebody interesting. We think, ‘Oh!’ You know.
Susannah Hewlett
[speaking over] Yeah. ‘The bla bla.’
Charles Adrian
’The bla bla.’ Exactly. The thing that defines them.
Susannah Hewlett
And all my friends I tend to nickname. All of them have some – it's probably really annoying – like, diminutive of their name or an extension or... It's a way of, sort of... I suppose with friendship it's a way of creating that closeness or individual closeness with that person.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] And a way of saying, ‘You are the only person who is called this’.
Susannah Hewlett
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Probably. ‘You are special for this reason.’
Susannah Hewlett
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
But that's... Oh, I'm going to look forward to reading that. Thank you.
Susannah Hewlett
[speaking over] Oh, it's brilliant. It's a sick world but a really exciting one. And, yeah, I'm really interested in that idea of, kind of, where humour becomes something else. Something that makes you feel really uncomfortable.
Charles Adrian
Nice.
Susannah Hewlett
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
Oh, thank you so much. And thank you. It's been lovely to talk to you.
Susannah Hewlett
Yeah. Thanks for having me. I've loved it.
Charles Adrian
This has been wonderful. I'm going to play the second track that I've picked. And this... I'm not really sure how I feel about M.I.A.
Susannah Hewlett
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
[laughing] I think she's quite a controversial figure in many ways. And this song... And I don't know. I think I'm judging her harshly because she's a woman. I don't think that she should have gunshots in her song. I feel like that's my... that's my latent misogyny coming out because I might not be so harsh about a man. But I think I would be. I don't like gunshots.
Susannah Hewlett
No. No. Fair enough.
Charles Adrian
And so I don't approve of this song but it is a good song. It's [laughing] very catchy. It's the most downloaded song from iTunes by M.I.A. at the moment. It's got the most...
Susannah Hewlett
[speaking over] Which one is...? Oh yeah. Bucky?
Charles Adrian
That's why I picked it. It's Paper Planes.
Susannah Hewlett
Oh, okay. Yup.
Charles Adrian
Do you like this one? Was this a good choice? No.
Susannah Hewlett
It's all right.
Charles Adrian
I'm going to play it anyway.
Susannah Hewlett
Play it! [laughs]
Charles Adrian
This is Paper Planes [laughing] by M.I.A. Thank you so much Sue.
Susannah Hewlett
Thank you.
Music
[Paper Planes by M.I.A.]
Jingle
Thank you for listening to Page One. For more information about the podcast please go to pageonepodcast.com.
[Initial transcription by https://otter.ai]