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(Background noise might make this episode a challenging listen.)
Episode image is a detail from the cover of Selected Poems by C.P. Cavafy, published in 2013 by Aiora Press; cover illustration by Constantinos Markopoulos
Sitting outside the Money Museum in Athens, Charles Adrian is joined by musician, performer and teacher Vicky Sachpazi for the 58th Second Hand Book Factory. They talk about the science of religiosity, the right way to behave in a room and Lawrence Durrell’s “poet of the city”.
The Erifili who is mentioned is Erifili Stefanidou, featured in Page One 80.
The Alison who is mentioned in Alison Windsor, featured in Page One 79.
Incidentally, if you haven’t already, you could check out the 55th Page One, in which Charles Adrian talks about Lawrence Durrell’s Alexandria Quartet.
Selected Poems by C. P. Cavafy is also discussed in Page One 176.
More information about Trio Tzane is here.
This episode has been edited to remove music that is no longer covered by licence for this podcast.
This episode features a jingle written for the podcast by the band Friends Of Friends.
A transcript of this episode is below.
Episode released: 20th May, 2014.
Book listing:
The ‘God’ Part Of The Brain by Matthew Alper (trans. Victoria Tzouma)
The Etiquette Of Politeness by Jan Barnes.
Selected Poems by C. P. Cavafy (trans. David Connolly)
Links:
Episode transcript:
[transcriber’s note: Similarly to the previous episode, I did not have access to Victoria Tzouma’s Greek translation of The ‘God’ Part of the Brain by Matthew Alper that Vicky reads from a little under six minutes into this conversation and, not being a Greek speaker, I have not tried to guess how the sounds might be transcribed. Any assistance with this would be appreciated.]
Charles Adrian
Hello. Charles Adrian here. This is the 81st Page One. My guest today is Vicky Sachpazi. Now, rather like last week's guest, Erifili Stefanidou, Vicky didn't provide me with a list of music before we did the recording. Normally, I crack the whip a little bit more where music is concerned – I require that there is a list that I can choose from, or at least a few tracks, or failing that I choose music myself – but I was on holiday. This is also recorded in Athens. This is the third of what you might call the Athens recordings. So I'll just tell you now the music that Vicky chose subsequently and which I have slipped seamlessly into the recording which you're about to hear. The first track is called Railway Station and is by Emir Kusturica and the No Smoking Orchestra. The second track is Yumeji's Theme from In the Mood for Love, which is a film I absolutely have to see again. That's by Shigeru Umebayashi, I hope. And the third track is Snoshti Sedenki Kladohme, which means ‘last night we went to a gathering’. And that's by Trio Tzane, who you can find a bit more about if you want to by clicking on the link that I will put into the description. Thanks very much. I hope you enjoy the podcast.
Charles Adrian
[quietly] Hang on, so... yes... [normal volume] Hello and welcome to the 81st Page One. This is the 58th Second Hand Book Factory. I'm Charles Adrian and I'm here outside the Museum of... I suppose in English you'd say the Mint Museum... something like that... where they... Did they used to mint money here? Did they make money in this building?
Vicky Sachpazi
No, they... Just a place that all the money throughout the years is all gathered.
Charles Adrian
So it's just a museum.
Vicky Sachpazi
Just a museum, yes…
Charles Adrian
Okay. What was it before?
Vicky Sachpazi
… Money Museum. I don't know. It has been used from the Germans during the Second World War as a basis also...
Charles Adrian
Okay.
Vicky Sachpazi
... but I don't know what it was before that.
Charles Adrian
Okay. Anyway, it's a nice building and we're sitting in the cafe. I'm here with Vicky Sachpazi...?
Vicky Sachpazi
Yes.
Charles Adrian
She's my guest.
Vicky Sachpazi
Hello.
Charles Adrian
And here's the jingle.
Jingle
You're listening to Page One, the book podcast.
Charles Adrian
Hi Vicky! [laughs]
Vicky Sachpazi
Hi Adrian!
Charles Adrian
So, just to prepare my listeners, there might be some wind noise, there's definitely gonna be some traffic noise, a little bit of chatting. But hopefully we'll be audible in the foreground.
Vicky Sachpazi
Yes.
Charles Adrian
How do you describe yourself, Vicky?
Vicky Sachpazi
Well, I am a musician to start with. I was born and live all my life in the centre of Athens, studied music all from six years old, piano, finished the conservatory. And then I studied music and movement for pedagogy, the ORF in Salzburg, and in Athens at the [unclear] University. Then I went... I came back here, I worked with children for several years, and then I went to Paris to study more about... to learn more about movement, to be able to combine more this... all this pedagogy thing music and movement. So I study at the Théâtre International de Jacques Lecoq. I did the first year there and then lots of workshops about movement, movement analysis, laban notation. So... and since 2007 I'm back to Athens and I teach adults and children. I was involved in a couple of shows. I'm interested in all that there is the combination of arts and where is the combination of music, when you meet the music in the arts, where the music in the theatre, the music in the movement, and also, you know, the moments... the silence, that the music is there, but we can't hear it, the rhythm of it or the melody of it.
Charles Adrian
Oh, that's lovely. And so... And we met in Paris and you've been... I've been staying with Erifili, who was in last week's podcast, but you have been doing an amazing job of organising Alison and my schedule while we're here in Athens. And i's been lovely. We've had such a good week.
Vicky Sachpazi
I'm glad you enjoyed it. It was lovely to have you here and you're very welcome to come any time you want.
Charles Adrian
Aww, thank you. Now what's the book that you've brought that you like?
Vicky Sachpazi
Well, I brought a book that is called The ‘God’ Part of the Brain.
Charles Adrian
The god part of the brain?
Vicky Sachpazi
The god. Like le dieu.
Charles Adrian
Yes.
Vicky Sachpazi
The ‘God’...
Charles Adrian
Oh. Okay. Yes.
Vicky Sachpazi
Part of the Brain. And it's from Matthew Alper. If I translate it from Greek to English it will be The God in the Brain. God in the Brain.
Charles Adrian
I see.
Vicky Sachpazi
And it's a scientific approach to gods and religionsy? Religion...
Charles Adrian
Religious...
Vicky Sachpazi
Religiosity!
Charles Adrian
Religiosity. Yes. [laughs]
Vicky Sachpazi
[laughing] Religiosity. So I'm going to read you the first page... in Greek?
Charles Adrian
Yeah, yeah. Read it and then maybe you can tell us what it says.
Vicky Sachpazi
Yes.
Charles Adrian
More or less.
Vicky Sachpazi
So just this?
Charles Adrian
Yes.
Vicky Sachpazi
Yes. It's a prologue. So:
[reads first page of The 'God' Part of the Brain by Matthew Alper translated into Greek by Victoria Tzouma]
Charles Adrian
It sounds nice.
Vicky Sachpazi
[laughing] You don't understand a word.
Charles Adrian
No, I don't understand anything. What does it say?
Vicky Sachpazi
It starts by explaining the need that we have as human beings – more than the other creatures on earth – to find the... our connection to the universe, all those things that they make us... that makes us more spiritual. The things... What's the purpose, why I'm here, all the question marks that we have about where I come from, where to go.
Charles Adrian
Does... Do we know that other creatures don't have those [laughing] questions? Or we just assume?
Vicky Sachpazi
[laughs] We just assume.
Charles Adrian
Yes, of course.
Vicky Sachpazi
We just assume. Yes.
Charles Adrian
And does he... So he's interested in this from a scientific point of view?
Vicky Sachpazi
He's interested... Yes. So I don't think he believes in god, Matthew, if I understood from this book. And he's trying to explain that somehow, genetically, we are made so to believe. That it is something that it is now so deep inside our conscious that we are born and we... somehow we believe that there is god. And...
Charles Adrian
Okay, so he thinks we're already ready to believe before we hear about it?
Vicky Sachpazi
We hear about it, yes,
Charles Adrian
Okay. Yes.
Vicky Sachpazi
That there is a gene. That there's a gene. And I like very much the way it starts. He starts by talking about the universe and about how... the creation. Like, all the things that we know about the creation. About the planets and nah nah nah. And then he goes further, further, further, small... into a smaller scale. And then he goes to... up to the cells and the DNA. And... And we arrive to this. I like very much the topics that he has because he's talking about human behaviour and relationship with spirituality and the god. And I think you will find it very interesting book if you see it in English.
Charles Adrian
Okay.
Vicky Sachpazi
So...
Charles Adrian
Oh, no, interesting. Thanks for bringing that, Vicky. It's very interesting because Alison... certainly Alison, Erifili and I have been talking a lot about religion this week. It's Holy Week...
Vicky Sachpazi
Yes.
Charles Adrian
... while we're recording this so it's been very much in the air. And last night we all of us were following... What do you call that? What were we doing? It was the litany?
Vicky Sachpazi
Epitaphios. Epitaph.
Charles Adrian
Epitaphios. Okay, so we were following the... the... Christ's tomb as... as... It's a kind of wooden structure with flowers entwined in it. Is that right?
Vicky Sachpazi
Yes.
Charles Adrian
And you follow it around a part of the city. There were lots of them from different churches and we picked one.
Vicky Sachpazi
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
And they sing. It was very, very nice.
Vicky Sachpazi
Yeah. Not all the people that they were there are religious.
Charles Adrian
No?
Vicky Sachpazi
They just go there because it's nice.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Well, we were there. I mean... [laughs]
Vicky Sachpazi
We were there. Yes. Exactly.
Charles Adrian
Oh no, that was wonderful. Okay. Good choice, Vicky. And now we're going to play the first music track that you've chosen – except, rather like Erifili yesterday, you haven't chosen it yet. So we don't know what it is yet but we will [laughing] find out...
Vicky Sachpazi
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
... about now.
Music
[Railway Station by Emir Kusturica and the No Smoking Orchestra]
Charles Adrian
Great. So that was the first track. Thank you very much Vicky.
Vicky and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
Later on, I will maybe add a little whispered note to explain what that was. When we know.
Vicky Sachpazi
Okay.
Charles Adrian
But this is... Now is the moment in the podcast where I give you the book that I have brought for you.
Vicky Sachpazi
Okay.
Charles Adrian
It's a very small book.
Vicky Sachpazi
[speaking over] Very exciting.
Charles Adrian
I don't know what you're going to... how... what you're going to think of it but I chose it because I thought you are quite interested, I think, in how people are supposed to behave.
Vicky Sachpazi
Yes.
Charles Adrian
Yeah. And this is a book... It's called The Etiquette of Politeness.
Vicky Sachpazi
Wow.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Subtitled Good Sense and Good Manners.
Vicky Sachpazi
It's in French?
Charles Adrian
No, it's in English.
Vicky Sachpazi
[affirmative] Uh huh.
Charles Adrian
And it was, I think, probably... I don't know where it comes from. There's really no information about where this comes from. It's published by Copper Beech Publishing. But I suspect that they may have been... it may have been from magazines or newspapers and it's just...
Vicky Sachpazi
[speaking over] From the 50s?
Charles Adrian
From the 1850s.
Vicky Sachpazi
From the 1850s?
Charles Adrian
So it's mid 19th century.
Vicky Sachpazi
It's like savoir vivre?
Charles Adrian
Yes, it's... Well, it's really, yeah, how to be in society so that you don't embarrass yourself. And it's specifically aimed at middle class society. So there are things like: How to Behave in a Room, Behaviour at the Dinner Table, Behaviour at a Tea Table, Behaviour at a Garden Party...
Vicky Sachpazi
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
... How to Choose your Company, Behaviour in the Ballroom, Odd Tricks... I can't remember what odd tricks are. I don't [laughing] think... I don't think they're magic tricks.
Vicky Sachpazi
No.
Charles Adrian
Advice to Young Ladies on the Art of Pleasing. So perhaps you can concentrate on that.
Vicky Sachpazi
I will definitely concentrate on that...
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Vicky Sachpazi
... because we need that. This information is very useful.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] It's very important.
Vicky Sachpazi
Yes.
Charles Adrian
Very important. And that includes advice on cleanliness and beauty and amiability and all sorts of other things. Awkwardness.
Vicky Sachpazi.
Do they have ‘Men: How to Please Women’?
Charles Adrian
No, they just have... they have...
Vicky Sachpazi
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
There's a section on generally how to be as a man.
Vicky Sachpazi
Ah. Okay.
Charles Adrian
And...
Vicky Sachpazi
Without the pleasure.
Charles Adrian
... things like: Very Bad Habits. So...
Vicky and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
‘Some are perpetually hitching up their clothes. Others have a kind of snort like a young elephant. Others again make faces as if for a wager. All very, very bad habits.’ So those things must not be done. And something I noticed you do yesterday, Vicky – and I'm sorry to bring this up in the middle of a podcast... It does say that it's very bad manners to stand with your back to the fire, warming your buttocks.
Vicky Sachpazi
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
And I noticed you doing that up in the mountains yesterday.
Vicky Sachpazi
I did that yes.
Vicky and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Vicky Sachpazi
Why this is not polite?
Charles Adrian
I think you block the heat for the rest of the room. I can't remember. But what you didn't do, which it tells you, is flap your coattails.
Vicky and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
If I find it here I'll read it but I can't remember where it... Oh yes, here we are. It's on the second page, actually. ‘It is a mark of extreme vulgarity...
Vicky Sachpazi
[gasps]
Charles Adrian
... to thrust the hands into the breeches or waistcoat pockets or to warm one's back at the fire by raising the coat flaps at an angle of forty-five degrees while the rest of the company are freezing.’
Vicky Sachpazi
Ah. No, you were not freezing though.
Charles Adrian
No, we were not freezing.
Vicky Sachpazi
Okay. Thank God.
Charles Adrian
But I did have a little smile to myself knowing that I was going to give this to you today.
Vicky and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
Okay. This is the first page, though. How to Behave in a Room:
I have so much to include under this heading that I scarcely know where to begin. Every movement, every look and every inflection of tone is more or less its constituent. When you happen to be standing in a room full of company, I should advise that you acquire the following method of: bending the arms so that they may repose a little forward and so as to admit of the hand being easily clasped, one leg should be straight, the knee of the other slightly bent out, the body erect, the neck in its place, the head poised freely without stiffness and the countenance expressing mildness and candour.
[laughs] I think that's something you have to practise...
Vicky Sachpazi
I will!
Charles Adrian
... before it will look at all natural.
Vicky Sachpazi
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
[laughing] I haven't tried it myself.
Vicky Sachpazi
Thank you very much.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] But next time I come into a room that you're standing in, Vicky, I expect you to be...
Vicky Sachpazi
It's very useful this book, Adrian. You will see how much different I will be next time we meet.
Charles Adrian
Yeah, I might not recognise you.
Vicky and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Vicky Sachpazi
Great!
Charles Adrian
And now... So now we're going to play the second mystery track that you will have chosen by the time this podcast goes out.
Vicky Sachpazi
[gasps]
Music
[Yumeji's Theme by Shigeru Umebayashi]
Vicky Sachpazi
Okay.
Charles Adrian
And now, what's the book that you've brought for me?
Vicky Sachpazi
I brought you a book with poems from a poet called Kavafis. Konstantinos Kavafis.
Charles Adrian
Now, I can't tell you how exciting this is. Just the other day, the mother of a friend of mine was talking about Kavafis – or, as we all him, Cavafy – and I hadn't realised it was a real person. Because I did a podcast on the Alexandria Quartet by Lawrence Durrell months ago and he talks about the ‘poet of The City’ of Alexandria, who is Cavafy.
Vicky Sachpazi
Cavafy.
Charles Adrian
And I assumed he had invented him and...
Vicky Sachpazi
No, he's great.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] ... my friend's mother said ‘No, no no, you have to read him.’
Vicky Sachpazi
You have to read him.
Charles Adrian
And now only a few days later you've brought me the book.
Vicky Sachpazi
Yes. And you're going to have the book... the poems also in Greek and then the next page is in English.
Charles Adrian
Oh, wonderful.
Vicky Sachpazi
So if you learn Greek at this point... [laughs]
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] I can start to... I can at least start to work out how the words might be.
Vicky Sachpazi
I love this poet. He speaks straight into my heart. I really much... I really appreciate the way he speaks about how... the freedom of the people... You know, how human beings imposed to the other human beings, what they're supposed to do, how they're supposed to be and all the problems that they create around them like walls where there is no problem and how much we lose the meaning of our lives or the meaning of being here or the meaning of the trip only by all the time wanting to... to aiming the goal and we miss the the trip.
Charles Adrian
Ah, yes.
Vicky Sachpazi
We say that: you're aiming... you aim the...
Charles Adrian
You only think about the outcome.
Vicky Sachpazi
Yes. Don't think about where you're going, just concentrate on the trip.
Charles Adrian
Yes, that's beautiful. Yeah.
Vicky Sachpazi
And one of this... he's famous about his poem Ithaki – Ithaca – which is talking exactly about that. That: never forget about Ithaki. Ithaki's the island of Odysseus.
Charles Adrian
Yes, yes.
Vicky Sachpazi
He says: never forget about Ithaki. Yes, it's there where we're supposed to go but don't think only about that because you will lose all the trip. If there was no Ithaca you wouldn't travel, you wouldn't do all this trip. But...
Charles Adrian
[appreciative] Mmm. Nice.
Vicky Sachpazi
So I don't know which poem do you want me to read? Do you want...?
Charles Adrian
I think you should read the first poem.
Vicky Sachpazi
Okay.
Charles Adrian
I think that would be the most in keeping with my scheme.
Vicky Sachpazi
Okay. In Greek or in English?
Charles Adrian
Could you do both?
Vicky Sachpazi
I can do both. It's not very big. The City. Η Πόλις. I'll start with Greek.
Charles Adrian
Okay. Lovely.
Vicky Sachpazi
Είπες· «Θα πάγω σ' άλλη γή, θα πάγω σ' άλλη θάλασσα,
Μια πόλις άλλη θα βρεθεί καλλίτερη από αυτή.
Κάθε προσπάθεια μου μια καταδίκη είναι γραφτή·
κ' είν' η καρδιά μου — σαν νεκρός — θαμένη.
Ο νους μου ως πότε μες στον μαρασμό αυτόν θα μένει.
Οπου το μάτι μου γυρίσω, όπου κι αν δω
ερείπια μαύρα της ζωής μου βλέπω εδώ,
που τόσα χρόνια πέρασα και ρήμαξα και χάλασα».
Καινούριους τόπους δεν θα βρεις, δεν θάβρεις άλλες θάλασσες.
Η πόλις θα σε ακολουθεί. Στους δρόμους θα γυρνάς
τους ίδιους. Και στες γειτονιές τες ίδιες θα γερνάς·
και μες στα ίδια σπίτια αυτά θ' ασπρίζεις.
Πάντα στην πόλι αυτή θα φθάνεις. Για τα αλλού — μη ελπίζεις —
δεν έχει πλοίο για σε, δεν έχει οδό.
Ετσι που τη ζωή σου ρήμαξες εδώ
στην κώχη τούτη την μικρή, σ' όλην την γή την χάλασες.
Charles Adrian
It sounds lovely even if I don't understand anything.
Vicky Sachpazi
[sighs]
Charles Adrian
What is this in English?
Vicky Sachpazi
THE CITY
“I'll leave for other lands,” you said, “I'll leave for other seas.
Another city better than this city [sic] is certain to be found.
All my endeavours are by fate condemned;
and — like a corpse — my heart lies buried.
Till when will my mind go on wasting away.
Wherever I turn my gaze, wherever I look
I see my life gone to rack and ruin here,
where I spent and spoiled and squandered so many years.”
You won't find new parts, won't find other seas.
The city will follow you. You'll wander its streets,
the same streets. And in the same districts you'll grow old;
and in these very same houses turn grey.
This is the city you'll always reach. Of places elsewhere — don't hold out hope —
for you there's no boat, no path for you.
As you spoiled your life here
in this little corner, so you squandered it the world over.
Charles Adrian
[laughs] That's... it's... [laughs]
Vicky Sachpazi
Oh my god!
Charles Adrian
It's not a very friendly poem, is it?
Vicky Sachpazi
No, but it's so true!
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] But it's lovely. Yeah, I agree. I agree.
Vicky Sachpazi
It is so true.
Charles Adrian
Oh, thank you so much, Vicky. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful copy as well. Aww. Wonderful.
Vicky Sachpazi
Yes? [I'm] very happy.
Charles Adrian
Oh, thank you. And we will now play the last of your music choices.
Vicky Sachpazi
Okay.
Music
[Snoshti Sedenki Kladohme by Trio Tzane]
[Initial transcription by https://otter.ai]