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Episode image is a detail from the cover of The Yellow Dog by Georges Simenon, published in 2006 by Penguin Red Classics; cover artwork by David Pearson.
Alison Windsor describes herself as a teaching artist with an interest in language, which is a neat shorthand for some of the kinds of things that she does. For the 56th Second Hand Book Factory, she has flown from Sydney, Australia, to Athens, Greece, to talk to Charles Adrian about Kundera’s lightness of touch, the first play performed in (colonial) Australia and to swap stories about Paris. In the background you will occasionally hear the sound of next week’s guest, Erifili Stefanidou.
Another book by Georges Simenon, A Man’s Head, is discussed in Page One 115.
The Playmaker by Thomas Keneally is also discussed in Page One 176.
This episode has been edited to remove music that is no longer covered by licence for this podcast.
This episode features a jingle written for the podcast by the band Friends Of Friends.
A transcript for this episode is below.
Episode released: 6th May, 2014.
Book listing:
The Book Of Laughter And Forgetting by Milan Kundera (trans. Michael Henry Heim)
The Yellow Dog by Georges Simenon (trans. Linda Asher)
The Playmaker by Thomas Keneally
Links:
Episode transcript:
Charles Adrian
That's what I mean. But if you want to start again, you can start again from where you started and then... Does that makes sense?
Alison Windsor
Yes, it does.
Charles Adrian
Good. Okay, so let's go.
Alison Windsor
Okay.
Charles Adrian
Hello and welcome to the 79th Page One. This is the 56th Second Hand Book Factory. I'm Charles Adrian and I'm here in Athens with Alison Windsor.
Jingle
You're listening to Page One, the book podcast.
Charles Adrian
Hi Alison.
Alison Windsor
Hi Adrian.
Alison and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
Thanks very much for joining me for this podcast all the way from Australia.
Alison Windsor
[speaking over] It is my pleasure. Yes. This is my pleasure.
Charles Adrian
So we were going to do this over Skype – that was the original idea – because there were no... I had no plans to fly to Sydney to see you. But then you said, “Hey...”
Alison Windsor
I tantalisingly said, “I will be in Athens.”
Charles Adrian
Which is wonderful. So this is a great excuse for me to see you and our Greek friends, who hopefully my listeners will meet in the next couple of weeks. But you, you're the focus of this one.
Alison Windsor
That's right. I am.
Charles Adrian
How would you describe yourself, Alison?
Alison Windsor
Okay. So I would describe myself as... I guess I'm a [sighs]... I'm a theatre person and I'm also very interested in languages. So at the moment I am investigating how to blend those two things together. And I do quite a bit of teaching as well. So I'm sort of... But I, sort of... I don't see myself as a teacher, that's just something that I do in the capacity of being someone who likes theatre and languages.
Charles Adrian
So that's just a... So when you say you don't see yourself as a teacher, do you enjoy the teaching?
Alison Windsor
I love it. But I love it because I'm not a teacher. So my job is called Teaching Artist. So you do projects and you teach by doing the projects. So even though there's still classes it's all towards, sort of, a goal. Yeah. So this is something I can tell you now and it's got nothing to do with the podcast. [It's just that] I haven't told you yet. So later on in the year I'm actually going to be working as a teaching artist but in the, sort of, context of a programme that they're doing about emotional language. And my role – and there'll be a musician and a teacher and a researcher – my role in that is to use drama and theatre to explore how people learn language. So that's how I tried to...
Charles Adrian
Oh fascinating.
Alison Windsor
Those are the things that I'm enjoying.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Right. Okay.
Alison Windsor
The overlap.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Right. Oh, great.
Alison Windsor
And... yeah, and it's exciting.
Charles Adrian
Well, cool. Thank you.
Alison Windsor
So there you go. That was long, but...
Charles Adrian
That was... but comprehensive. I think we got quite far into the root of what Alison Windsor is. [laughs]
Alison Windsor
[speaking over] [laughing] I hope so.
Charles Adrian
What's the book that you've brought that you like.
Alison Windsor
The book that I've brought that I like? I'll just show you the ti... I brought this... Because I didn't bring the book because I already had to bring one and I only have 15 kilos.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Because you're travelling. Yeah.
Alison Windsor
So this is the book that I brought for you.
Charles Adrian
Uh huh.
Alison Windsor
With the photo? So have you read it?
Charles Adrian
No.
Alison Windsor
It's The Book of Laughter and Forgetting by Milan Kundera.
Charles Adrian
I've never read it. No.
Alison Windsor
So I love Milan Kundera. I mean, he... I just go back to his books all the time. And this was his first, sort of, successful book. And [sighs] [quietly] I just love it.
Charles Adrian
Do you want to read the first page?
Alison Windsor
Yes. I do want to read the first page but...
Charles Adrian
Yes?
Alison Windsor
I have just... I was not going to ask you in advance. I'm gonna ask you now. Can I please cheat, Adrian? Can I read the first page and then two lines of the second page? May I?
Charles Adrian
I... Yes, I will avert my... like, I will avert my gaze.
Alison Windsor
Yeah, yeah. Okay. All right. Avert your gaze.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Alison Windsor
Because otherwise you'll miss out one of the best bits and I was just...
Charles Adrian
[speaks over] I will be silently disapproving but as long as you can deal with that. No, of course you can. [laughs]
Alison Windsor
[laughs] Yes, I can deal with your silent disapproval. That's no problem at all. Okay. You ready?
Charles Adrian
Yes.
Alison Windsor
All right.
In February 1948, the Communist leader Klement Gottwald stepped out onto [sic] the balcony of a Baroque palace in Prague to harangue hundreds of thousands of citizens massed in Old Town Square. That was a great turning point in the history of Bohemia. A fateful moment of the kind that occurs only once or twice a millennium.
Gottwald was flanked by his comrades, with Clementis standing close to him. It was snowing and cold, and Gottwald was bareheaded. Bursting with solicitude, Clementis took off his fur hat and set it on Gottwald's head.
The propaganda section made hundreds of thousands of copies of the photograph taken on the balcony where Gottwald, in a fur hat and surrounded by his comrades, spoke to the people. On that balcony the history of Communist Bohemia began. Every child knew that photograph, from seeing it on posters and in schoolbooks and museums.
Four years later, Clementis was charged with treason and hanged. The propaganda section immediately made him vanish from history and, of course, from all photographs. Ever since, Gottwald has been alone on the balcony. Where Clementis stood, there is only the bare palace wall. Nothing remains of Clementis but the fur hat on Gottwald's head.
Charles Adrian
Oh that's beautiful. That's such a...
Alison Windsor
Do you like it?
Charles Adrian
It's such an efficient image that fur hat. I like it very much.
Alison Windsor
Oh, I'm really glad. I hope you really like it.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] It's really nice.
Alison Windsor
It's... This.... I mean, it's the first page of the first book, I think, that I read of him. And his writing just... it is so clear. And he manages with quite simple language at times. Like, sort of, it almost reads, sort of, like, quite factual but he writes about the most personal and intimate moments that people have. And he just carries you away and before you know it you've... You know, like, I like that passage because out of nothing comes something really meaningful and he does that really well.
Charles Adrian
Oh, nice. Oh, lovely. I read The Unbearable Lightness of Being years ago and I don't remember it very well at all. So maybe I should go back and reread that as well.
Alison Windsor
[speaking over] Yeah, like, it's not my favourite one of his books. I liked it, but...
Charles Adrian
It's just the one that got famous.
Alison Windsor
Yeah. And it's beautiful but like, you know, the ideas in that book, he sort of explores them in all his books. But I think that had, sort of, the catchiest title.
Charles Adrian
Oh, right, right right. Yes.
Alison Windsor
But it's a good book. Like, you know, it's not that I didn't like it. It's just that...
Charles Adrian
Yeah, so maybe I should explore something else. This one... remind me of the title?
Alison Windsor
The Book of Laughter and Forgetting. And so those are the... Sort of, the main themes is [sic] why we laugh and when we laugh, and why we forget or remember things, and how both of those things sometimes happen... yeah, involuntarily and... and then they can really change your... you know, those moments of laughter might completely change your whole life story.
Charles Adrian
[appreciative] Mmm.
Alison Windsor
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
Now, I'm going to play the first track that I've chosen from your list that you very quickly put together for me. Thank you very much. So the first one is Paris by Camille. I know nothing about this at all. I just played it a little bit now.
Alison Windsor
Really?
Charles Adrian
But I thought it would be appropriate because we met in Paris.
Alison Windsor
Yes. That's why I put it on there.
Charles Adrian
Yeah. Wonderful. So what... yeah, tell me about it quickly.
Alison Windsor
Oh. That song?
Charles Adrian
Or Camille.
Alison Windsor
Oh, so Camille…
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] I remember seeing posters for Camille in Paris.
Alison Windsor
Yeah, so she... Actually, in the time that we were living in Paris was when she started to get known. And she put out this first album and the song... I think it was called Ma Douleur or something. And she does a lot of stuff with vocal, like... maybe hardly any accompaniment but it's her own voices that accompany... But anyway, this song is just... you know, it just... it's full of nostalgia for me because she put it out when I was in Paris and it's about Paris and it's about being in Paris and leaving Paris and wanting to go back to Paris.
Charles Adrian
Oh. Right. Okay.
Alison Windsor
So, you know, say no more.
Charles Adrian
Okay.
Alison Windsor
Shall I put it on?
Charles Adrian
Yes, please.
Music
[Paris by Camille]
Charles Adrian
Lovely. So that was Pari... [with French accent] Paris, I should say, by Camille.
Alison Windsor
Bah, bien sûr, uh?
Alison and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Alison Windsor
Ouais.
Charles Adrian
Ouais. Ouais. Now. And that was... that was... I chose that, as I say, partly because we met in Paris and partly because the book I'm going to give to you is... it's not based in Paris but it is French. It is a French book in translation. It's The Yellow Dog by Georges Simenon. Have you ever read any of the Maigret books.
Alison Windsor
No.
Charles Adrian
They're very little. I partly chose it... I was gonna give you a novel about Australia because it was a book I liked and I thought, “She's Australian so she might like it too.” But then it was quite a big book and I thought, “No, that's not really fair.” And this one is very slim.
Alison Windsor
That is... That can fit in my luggage.
Charles Adrian
It's very light. And it's really... I have a whole pile of these Maigret books. And they're really fun. He's quite a... He's a very, sort of, dour...
Alison Windsor
Who's Maigret?
Charles Adrian
He's a detective. He's a Chief Inspector.
Alison Windsor
Oh, it's the character. Oh, okay.
Charles Adrian
Yeah. And he's... There are loads of these stories. He's a very... You know, Simenon was hugely prolific. And I think he's pro... I think Maigret's probably the French detective. You know if you had to name a French detective, I think people would name Maigret. I don't know if there are any others but he's the only one that I've come across. And he's... So he works in Paris - normally, he's stationed in Paris - and he's the chief inspector. And he has a wife who he goes home to for lunch, usually, and dinner. And he's very... I get the feeling that it's another time. I mean, they were written... When was this one published first? 1931. So it's a real... it's a France from you, know, 80 years ago or 70 years ago,
Alison Windsor
But that's probably pretty familiar because that period was really...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] It's still very familiar. Yeah. Absolutely.
Alison Windsor
… when everybody's vision of Paris just froze.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] That's right. And so you recognise... And you recognise the characters. You recognise the people and you recognise the way they behave, I think. And in this one he's in Brittany. So he's on the coast. And he just, kind of, stumps around and doesn't seem to be doing very much and is quite grumpy a lot of the time and people get very frustrated because they expect him to be actually solving the murder and he's just having a drink in the cafe.
Alison and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
But he is solving the murder...
Alison Windsor
Yeah, because...
Charles Adrian
... in his own way.
Alison Windsor
By not worrying about it, maybe.
Charles Adrian
By thinking intently. He's a very bright man, Maigret. But here's the first page.
Alison Windsor
Okay.
Charles Adrian
1. Nobody's Dog
Friday, 7 November. Concarneau is empty. The lighted clock in the Old Town glows above the ramparts; it is five minutes to eleven.
The tide is in, and a south-westerly gale is slamming the boats together in the harbour. The wind surges through the streets. Here and there a scrap of paper scuttles swiftly along the ground.
There is not a single light on Quai de l'Aiguillon. Everything is closed. Everyone is asleep. Only the three windows of the Admiral Hotel, on the square where it meets the quay [/keɪ/]... the quay [/kiː/]...
[laughing] Is that how we say it in English, the quay [/kiː/]?
Alison Windsor
Quay [/kiː/], yes. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
... where it meets the quay [/kiː/], are still lighted.
They have no shutters, but through their murky greenish panes the figures inside are just barely visible. Huddled in his booth less than a hundred yards away, the customs guard stares enviously at the people lingering in the cafe.
Across from him in the harbour is a coaster that had come in for shelter that afternoon. There is no one on deck. It's blocks creak, and a loose jib snaps in the wind. And there is the relentless din of the gale and the rattle of the tower clock as it prepares to toll eleven.
The hotel door opens. A man appears, still talking to the people inside. The gale snatches at him, flaps his coattails, lifts off his bowler hat. He catches it in time and jams it onto [sic] his head as he walks away.
That's all you're going to find out for the moment. [laughs]
Alison Windsor
[gasps] But what's the man going to do next?
Charles Adrian
[in a silly voice] What's going to happen?
Alison Windsor
Thank you very much.
Charles Adrian
So there you go. You should be able to...
Alison Windsor
We both brought a first page where a hat is very meaningful.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] That's right, we did. At least present. I'm not sure how meaningful that man's hat is but, well, maybe you'll find out.
Alison Windsor
Well... Yeah, a bowler hat.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] But it's true. That's a good connection, actually. Yeah, I like it. Thank you for pointing that out.
Alison Windsor
[speaking over] I don't know. I think a bowler hat is always meaningful to me.
Charles Adrian
Yeah?
Alison Windsor
A bowler hat. You know, the people who wear bowler hats in movies, they're always up to something or they're, you know, like...
Charles Adrian
[laughs] That's true.
Alison Windsor
Don't you think? Well maybe [indistinct]...
Charles Adrian
It might be a red herring.
Alison Windsor
Well thank you. Yeah, it might be.
Charles Adrian
But you should be able to just read that between here and... and Berlin. Is that where you going next?
Alison Windsor
Yes.
Charles Adrian
Yeah. Just... [swallowing noise]... like, swallow it down almost in a gulp.
Alison Windsor
Yes. Or I can save it for the trip back when I'm sad because I'm leaving.
Charles Adrian
Aw. Yeah, you could do that as well and read about people dying.
Alison Windsor
[laughs] Yes.
Charles Adrian
And dogs. Yellow dogs.
Alison Windsor
That's so much better.
Alison and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
What's the book that you brought for me?
Alison Windsor
Okay. The book that I have brought for you, Adrian, is... And I'm really... Ever since you said let's do this podcast I've been trying to remember if I talked to you about this book. I feel like I did. But then I may have just imagined that I might...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] I probably won't remember. Okay. Yeah. So it won't matter.
Alison Windsor
The book I've brought for you is called The Playmaker and it's by Thomas Keneally. And it was also adapted into a play called Our Country's Good.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] You... Okay. I'm sure we did talk about this.
Alison Windsor
Yes! Okay. Good. So I didn't...
Charles Adrian
Everything about that rings a bell,
Alison Windsor
But you haven't read it?
Charles Adrian
No, no, but I have read Our Country's Good. So that's good.
Alison Windsor
Yes. Well this is the book.
Charles Adrian
Excellent.
Alison Windsor
Yes. So should I introduce it?
Charles Adrian
Yeah, please.
Alison Windsor
Okay. So this book is written about... I mean, it's a fictional accounts of real events that happened in the early days of the Australian penal colony when, in an effort to start to create this new, you know, society and culture, one of the governing officers commissioned somebody to put on a play. And it was going to be, you know, using the convicts and everything. And it was going to be the, you know... Like, it's momentous. The first theatrical event in... in their minds – you know, in the settlers' minds, of course – the first theatrical event ever on that... in that new continent. This is a second hand book.
Charles Adrian
Oh, that's even better!
Alison Windsor
Yes. And I was really excited to find it, actually. I was not sure if I'd be able to find it. But I'm just gonna read the inscription. It's: “To dear dad, and Pa. Christmas 1987 with love, Jan, Peter, Marie and Greg.”
Charles Adrian
Aww!
Alison Windsor
Okay.
1
THE READING
APRIL 1789He began hearing for the parts in the play early in April, the day after the hanging of Private Handy Baker and the five other Marines. His purpose was to find fourteen convicts for the chief speaking parts. Much later he could find and begin rehearsing the lesser actors in their movements about a stage which he could only dimly envisage as yet, and amongst leading players he would somehow have to perfect in the coming two and a little months.
H.E. had given him that span of time in which to bring about the very first presentation of this or any other play ever performed on this new penal planet, which so far as anyone knew had gone from the beginning of time till now absolutely play-less and theatre-less.
On this first [sic] morning of his first auditions, he was heavy-headed from sitting up late with Harry Brewer the Provost Marshal, and from drinking with him a dangerous quantity of brandy. Then, returned to his hut, he'd paid for it with one of those murderous old dreams he thought Dabby Bryant the witch had cured him of. As long as he drank wisely and modestly, he was safe from them. But in occasional drunkenness they returned, deadly and perfectly discreet little dreams to do with loss, desire and jealousy. /In this one, he met a city and a wife he had been separated from almost precisely two years in time and eight months travel in space. The city was Plymouth from which his convict transport had sailed to join the others at Portsmouth. The wife was of course little Betsy Alicia, her heart-shaped face sharp as a knife in the dream's definition. He had been holding two chestnut horses, one on either side of him, by the bridles.
Charles Adrian
Wow. Did... Now, this is just a question in case you know the answer as an Australian and a resident of Sydney. Did the people who went out – the officers – did they expect their families to come and join them? Or how...? What were they expecting? Were they expecting to go back home to the UK?
Alison Windsor
They were expected to go back home. Yeah. So they were...
Charles Adrian
They would do a, sort of, tour of duty and then...?
Alison Windsor
That's right. Yeah. It was a job or, like, a posting. And I think, because it was quite unknown what was going to happen, they had... Their experience of penal colonies was, obviously, North America.
Charles Adrian
Oh, was there a penal colony in North America as well?
Alison Windsor
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
Oh, I didn't know that.
Alison Windsor
Yeah, yeah. So... The difference being ,obviously, that the time and the distance is so much greater when you go to Australia. So, unfortunately, what happened for the first few years of the colony was everybody went there and the plan was to be that a certain amount of time later – and I can't remember exactly... it was like a year or something... maybe not even a year – the second ship would arrive. But this is the... You know, it's a very interesting thing because in that time war broke out between... There was the revolution in France and then the Americans were trying to, you know... There was a lot of unrest. So he ship that was supposed to come with supplies and more convicts and, you know, so that the penal colony would start having ships coming and going more often, it just didn't come. So, actually, the colony almost starved to death because they...
Charles Adrian
Wow. And no information, presumably, as to what was happening the other side of the world.
Alison Windsor
[speaking over] No information. So people like these officers would have gone there expecting to go back one day.
Charles Adrian
Oh my word.
Alison Windsor
Whether or not all of them did or... You know, the first governor did. The first governor went back to England after he'd finished his thing.
Charles Adrian
Amazing. Thank you so much.
Alison Windsor
[speaking over] An interesting time. So yes, I hope you enjoy reading this one.
Charles Adrian
I think I will. I think I will. Thank you. Well, that's it. That's been... It's been lovely. Thank you so much.
Alison Windsor
Thank you Adrian!
Charles Adrian
This has been a wonderful... Well, it's wonderful to see you anyway and it's wonderful to be here.
Alison Windsor
And it's great for me to be a part of this because I always enjoy listening to them.
Charles Adrian
That's so nice. I'm going to finish with a song by Arcade Fire, which you've chosen. It's on your [laughing] laptop so I can't remember what it's called.
Alison Windsor
Awful Sound.
Charles Adrian
Awful Sound. Oh, yes. That's right, it's...
Alison Windsor
And in brackets (Oh Eurydice).
Charles Adrian
Which is why I chose it. Because I thought: nice Greek link, no?
Alison Windsor
Yes, it's the perfect Greek link.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] We're in Athens.
Alison Windsor
And wait till you hear how this song starts. I love it.
Music
[Awful Sound (Oh Eurydice) by Arcade Fire]
[Initial transcription by https://otter.ai]