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Episode image is a detail from the cover of Three Things You Need To Know About Rockets by Jessica A. Fox, published in 2013 by Short Books; cover design: Andy Smith.
For the 55th Second Hand Book Factory, Charles Adrian is joined by Bernadette Russell, an artist who makes theatre pieces, books, objects, installations, radio plays and more or less whatever strikes her fancy. We talk about reactions to art, whether we should settle for reality as it presents itself and beds in bookshops. Find out more about Are You Sitting Comfortably and the 366 Days Of Kindness project here. You can read about the wonderful Wigtown Book Festival here.
This episode has been edited for language.
Another book by Iris Murdoch, The Sea, The Sea, is discussed in Page One 72 and Page One 174.
Three Things You Need To Know About Rockets by Jessica A. Fox is also discussed in Page One 175.
This episode has been edited to remove music that is no longer covered by licence for this podcast.
This episode features a jingle written for the podcast by the band Friends Of Friends.
A transcript of this episode is below.
Episode released: 15th April, 2014.
Book listing:
Forgive Me Leonard Peacock by Matthew Quick
Something Special by Iris Murdoch
Three Things You Need To Know About Rockets by Jessica A. Fox
Links:
Episode transcript:
Charles Adrian
Hello and welcome to the 77th Page One. This is the 55th Second Hand Book Factory. I'm Charles Adrian and my guest today, in Deptford, is Bernadette Russell.
Jingle
You're listening to Page One, the book podcast.
Charles Adrian
Hello Bernadette.
Bernadette Russell
Hello.
Bernadette and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
So thanks very much for hosting me in your studio. It's lovely here.
Bernadette Russell
That's okay. Welcome to Deptford. I'm sorry it's a bit messy in here.
Charles Adrian
Oh, that's even better. I love it.
Bernadette Russell
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
I feel very much at home in places that are disordered.
Bernadette Russell
Oh good.
Charles Adrian
How do you describe yourself, Bernadette?
Bernadette Russell
Well, that's a great question – fantastic question – and it's been challenging me in the last... since, sort of, 2008 because previously to that, I guess, I was mainly a jobbing actor. And then I started making my own work again and then really quickly what that meant – or how that manifested – really varied and wasn't theatre very often. Just... because I was commissioned to make big installations and I worked in visual art contexts quite a lot and in cabaret and stuff. So I describe myself now, with a slight little bit of curling of my toes, as an artist because I think it's the shortest way of... I think, kind of, people accept that rather than a really long sentence, which is, sort of, a miniature CV of all the things that I've been.
Bernadette and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Bernadette Russell
But also, I think, it allows me to think, ‘Well, I can do whatever I like. It's okay. I'm an artist.’ So I might... that means that I might write or I might make something or I might... which might be a piece of theatre or might be a toy or an object, or I might make an installation or I might make a radio play. It's all of those things. But I... In my world, certainly, I see people doing that more and more so they're not restricted. They're creativity isn't restricted into solely being an actor or solely being a writer. I think that's great.
Charles Adrian
Yes. Ah, cool. Interesting. Okay. That actually boils down to something a lot more simple than I thought it would do.
Bernadette Russell
Yes, it works. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] That's nice. Yes. It works very well. Now what's the book that you brought that you like?
Bernadette Russell
Oh yes. So, I've brought a book by Matthew Quick called Forgive Me, Leonard Peacock. And this is... It's an amazing book... Well, it was an amazing book for me because I read a lot of other people's short story submissions because I've run a night called Are You Sitting Comfortably and for some reason that had made it increasingly difficult for me to read anything else. I was kind of read out. I couldn't read anything else. Then something shifted and I've started being able to read novels again, which is brilliant because I really missed it. And I read this pretty much in one setting [sic], kind of... sitting. One of those. And I really enjoyed it because I, kind of, like... I really enjoy novels that are about troubled teenagers. I still, sort of, quite identify with that...
Charles Adrian
Right. Yeah. [laughs]
Bernadette Russell
... confused 16-year-old-ness. And I think you'll enjoy it.
Charles Adrian
Would you read us the first page?
Bernadette Russell
Yeah.
The P-38 WWII Nazi handgun looks comical lying on the breakfast table next to a bowl of oatmeal. It's like some weird steampunk utensil anachronism. But if you look very closely just above the handle you can see the tiny stamped swastika and eagle perched on top, which is real as hell.
I take a photo of my place setting with my iPhone, thinking it could be both evidence and modern art.
Then I laugh my ass off looking at it on the miniscreen because modern art is such bullshit.
I mean, a bowl of oatmeal and a P-38 sat [sic] next to it like a spoon—that arrangement photographed can be modern art, right?
Bullshit.
But funny too.
I've seen worse on display at real art museums, like an all-white canvas with a single red pinstripe through it.
Yes, it's... it kind of hijacks you a little bit, this book, I think, because it's genuinely shocking and, sort of, disturbing why he's come to the place that he's come to and how completely let down and abandoned he is by adults. And also the end... it's not a clean, sort of, tidy end.
Charles Adrian
Okay, so the narrator is the teenager.
Bernadette Russell
Yeah, yeah, the narrator's the teenager. And he's, you know, in a real state of confusion. So there's ordinary teenage things going on like that little introduction to his attitude to what art is and how it's all rubbish and how he doesn't really understand it. That kind of really resonated with me because I remember the first time that I went to the National Review of Live Art, we were invited to walk up to the top of a roof. And on the top of the roof was a huge block of ice. And I think we were asked... invited to watch it melt. And I'd never seen such a load of sh*** in all my life.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Bernadette Russell
You know, life's too short to stand on a rooftop in Cardiff watching ice melt. But I remember thinking, ‘I'm just not clever enough to understand this.’ I don't know...
Charles Adrian
Oh that's a horrible thing to... Yeah, that's...
Bernadette Russell
But by the end, though of that... by the end of the Festival of Live Art I just thought, ‘Yeah, that's not what the issue is really. It's just that this isn't for me and I don't like it.’ There were loads of other brilliant things there but that... And it's not fair. I'm sure that, you know, maybe I didn't understand it. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
No, but that's... What you say is interesting because I've been having discussions with lots of people recently about this topic. And I think that it's a reaction that people tend to have maybe because of the way we're introduced to art at school, that it's a question of ‘I understand it or I don't understand it’. And I think that's the wrong question. Because it leads us to go, ‘If I don't understand it, it's my fault.’ And I don't think it's anyone's fault. If something doesn't speak to you, it doesn't speak to you. End of.
Bernadette Russell
No, exactly.
Charles Adrian
It might speak to you in the future or it might have spoken to in the past. Right now, it doesn't.
Bernadette Russell
No. But there's a sort of humourlessness, sometimes, or an unnecessary earnestness in talking about art, and a dishonesty. So it's fine to say, ‘That doesn't do anything for me. I just don't understand it.’ Which... Without dismissing it, you're absolutely right. It doesn't mean that you're dismissing it or assuming that your opinion is the only opinion. Which is why I have a problem with art criticism as well. Because it is just an opinion but it's posited as fact. ‘This is what it is. It's three stars or it's five stars or it's...’
Charles Adrian
Well, maybe... Yes, because I think criticism is also valuable but, again, it's a question of the value you... how you interpret that.
Bernadette Russell
Yeah, it's... But that's about being taught how to understand criticism. And understanding, I think, that it is an opinion and that it doesn't... because you disagree with it, that doesn't invalidate the criticism nor your opinion.
Charles Adrian
Yes. Which is quite a complex thing to get your head around, I think.
Bernadette Russell
Yeah. And it takes experience, I guess. And it's confidence – which maybe is born of experience – to embrace your own taste, if you know what I mean.
Charles Adrian
Oh, I agree with you completely, yes.
Bernadette Russell
So I... I'm much better at that now. So I'll see things and I think, ‘That... I appreciate this skill. And the thought that went into that but I have absolutely no connection with it.’ Exactly that. Yeah.
Charles Adrian
Now, I'm going to play the first track that I've chosen from your amazing selection. There were lots of things that I would have chosen but I... So the first track is Pure Imagination from Charlie And the Chocolate Factory sung by Gene Wilder. I like this partly because I think it's really creepy and partly because I think there is something very beautiful about the text of this. But there's something dangerous about it and I think that's something that you explore as well in the work that you're doing and I like it. So, yeah, this is Pure Imagination by Gene Wilder.
Music
[Pure Imagination by Gene Wilder]
Charles Adrian
That was Gene Wilder singing Pure Imagination from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Now, my book for you, which is a beautiful copy that I was given...
Bernadette Russell
It's lovely.
Charles Adrian
... years ago, although it's a bit dirty on the back. I was given this by a girlfriend of mine when I was at university. And it's called Something Special. It's a short story by Iris Murdoch, which I suspect not very many people have read. And it's lovely. It's a very simple story. It's set in Dublin, which is where she was born. And it's essentially about coming to terms with the difference between dreams and real life. Like, what you could have and what you probably ought to accept. And I think you can... when you get to the end, you can decide whether you think it's an awful ending or an okay ending depending on how you feel about that question. You know, should we... should we accept that the things we grasp for...? Are we happier when we stop grasping for the things that we're not going to get? That's the question really. Or should we carry on trying to get them? And I think that probably divides [laughs] people.
Bernadette Russell
Yes.
Charles Adrian
I think some people would say, ‘No, you should always keep reaching’ and there are other people who, sort of, say, you know, ‘No, no, you should accept what you're given’. And I think I'm somewhere in between. But I like the journey that this story takes us on.
Bernadette Russell
Oh, that's great.
Charles Adrian
And I'm going to read... I'm going to cheat, which has become a habit of mine, and read... because it's a very short first page and I'm going to take us to the middle of the second page.
Something Special
”Why wouldn't you take him now?” said Mrs Geary. She was setting the evening papers to rights on the counter.
Yvonne sat astride a chair in the middle of the shop. She had it tilting precariously and was rubbing her small head animal fashion on the wood of the back, while her long legs were braced to prevent herself from toppling over. In answer to the question she said nothing.
”She's cross again,” said her uncle, who was standing at the door of the inner room.
“Who's she? She's the cat!” said Yvonne. She began to rock the chair violently to and fro. “Don't be breaking down that chair,” said her mother. “It's the last we have of the decent ones till the cane man is back. Why wouldn't you take him is what I asked.”
Close outside the shop the tram for Dublin came rattling by, darkening the scene for a moment and making little objects on the higher shelves jump and tinkle. It was a hot evening and the doors stood wide open to the dust of the street. “Oh leave off, leave off!” said Yvonne. “I don't want him, I don't want to marry. He's nothing special.”
There you go.
Bernadette Russell
Thank you. I look forward to reading that. And it's a great thing to consider, isn't it? Which makes you happier? Should you...? Because there's that, sort of, you know, X Factor. Britain's Got Talent, kind of, ‘Never let go of your dream!’ message, isn't there?
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Right. Exactly. I think it's a really difficult... It's a question that I struggle with all the time.
Bernadette Russell
Yeah. But I think equally difficult – I think – is allowing yourself to realise that your dreams changed ,if you know mean. Because I'm incredibly stubborn...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Aha, that's interesting. Yeah.
Bernadette Russell
... really, really stubborn so... which is... helps me sometimes, especially when I'm doing projects that take years. But I don't really... not interested in acting at all anymore. But because I was for so long from so young, it took me a long time to accept that it wasn't a question of giving it up. It's just that I didn't really want to.
Charles Adrian
Yeah, that's interesting. Yes. Yes.
Bernadette Russell
And what that meant and why I didn't. Because I'd changed so much that I didn't have the same... I had different desires. And that happens a lot to people, I think.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yes, yes, that is... I think you're ight. I think you're right. I suspect that's part of what's happening to this girl in the story, actually. That may be what Iris Murdoch is pointing to. That, yeah, you... you're not giving up one thing for a worse thing but you're accepting that the thing you're going to take is what you really want. That's... Yeah, I think that probably does happen to a lot of people. It's what... When I was at university, it's what my friends and I used to call ‘settling’. But I don't see it necessarily like that anymore.
Bernadette Russell
No, no, because I suppose that, sort of, suggests something negative or giving up.
Charles Adrian
But what you... I suppose you could also say what you're doing is you're taking a real thing rather than a not real thing.
Bernadette Russell
Yeah, that's true. And also your purpose underneath it – your, sort of, super-objective, if you like – in your life might not have changed. It's just what serves that changes. So... yeah.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yes. Right. Exactly. Yeah. What's your book for me?
Bernadette Russell
Oh yeah. So I've, sort of, broken the rules a little bit as well.
Charles Adrian
Yeah, we're in... we're just in...
Bernadette Russell
We're both naughty.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Bernadette Russell
So...
Charles Adrian
We're on the bad step, both of us, Bernadette. [laughs]
Bernadette Russell
[speaking over] We are. Now, my intention this week before I met you was to have read this and then I was...
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Bernadette Russell
... too poorly to do it... to read it and... But it's by Jessica A. Fox and it's called Three Things You Need to Know About Rockets. And it's subtitled... surtitled [sic]... A Bookshop Love Story.
Charles Adrian
Aww! That's lovely.
Bernadette Russell
Yeah. I can't... I'll have to just buy it again so I can read it as well. Now, last... [whispering] when was it, it must have been in… [normal voice] September of last year, I went to... I was invited to Wigtown Book Festival. And Wigtown is in the north east of Scotland and it's Scotland's book town. They've got a book town because Scotland are... amazing civilised country. And they... basically, they... it's a regular, sort of, book festival where authors go and do talks about their books. But Wigtown's, kind of, amazing because it was floundering from local industry, sort of, collapsing and not doing very well and now it's this amazing, beautiful little town that's full of birds and bookshops. It's amazing. And lots of second hand book shops – you'd love it. There's a really fantastic bookshop called The Random Book Club and it's stuffed full of brilliant second hand books. They've also installed in one of the sections a bed on stilts so if you're at Wigtown Book Festival you can book to stay the night in the bed...
Charles Adrian
Oh, lovely.
Bernadette Russell
... overnight. Yeah. And I tried to book it but it was already booked out. Anyway, it was fantastic. It was a blooming long journey to get there. And it was strange... When I got there, I met lots of lovely authors who were like, ‘What are you doing here? You haven't got anything to sell.’ Because I hadn't yet... my book, which I've now written, wasn't out or anywhere near being out. But I went to talk about my 366 Days of Kindness project. But this book is connected to this brilliant Random Book Club. So they've, sort of, set themselves up as an alternative to Amazon and you can... you pay a certain amount every year and then you get sent a book at random every month by them. The guy that owns the shop – and I can't remember his name – he... this story is the story of his love affair... romance with Jessica A. Fox, who wrote this book. So this book is about the shop that I visited at the Wigtown Book Festival and it is about their love story. So it's true. And I met... yeah, I met both of them. I was, sort of, a little bit held back, making sure I just bought second hand books whilst I was there. But this is a new book because it's just such a brilliant story. Because I'd met them both and then they, kind of, shyly introduced the fact that she'd written this book. And I think the book's done really well as well. I can't remember her backstory. I know she's American. She discovered the bookshop, The Random Book Club, online and went to visit and then they fell in love. So this is their story. So hopefully it's nice.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Oh wonderful! Read me the first page of it.
Bernadette Russell
There are three things you should know about a rocket launch. The first is that, if you sit too close, you'll be killed by the sound. Crammed into two rows of metal bleachers, we sat under the hot Florida sun miles away from the launch site, waiting in anticipation for the event. Suddenly something happened in the distance before us, across an expanse of water.
The second thing you should know is although the launch creates sound waves, which are strong enough to kill a person, ironically the spectator's first impression is one of total silence. Silence as my fellow witnesses and I stared gaping as plumes of silver smoke, then white smoke, then fire, emerged from under the rocket. Silence as an astronaut's wife and child, who stood next to me, watched, helpless, as the countdown began. Silence as a massive wave, an actual wave, sped across the water, fish jumping all around [sic], until it reached the shore and a wall of sound blasted our eardrums.
The third thing you should know about a rocket launch is that it is not new but old; perfectly ancient. Watching these bold pioneers defy gravity in their small vessel was something truly mythic to behold, like seeing fact and metaphor come alive at the same time; it resonated past our logic into primal subconsciousness [sic], touching on the essence of what it meant to be human, of our bold, insatiable curiosity and of leaving home for the unknown.
Charles Adrian
Wow. That's wonderful. I love it.
Bernadette Russell
It's a great start, isn't it?
Charles Adrian
Yeah, it's a good start. Oh, thank you so much.
Bernadette Russell
You're welcome.
Charles Adrian
I'm going to enjoy that. We have to bring the podcast to an end. This has been lovely, Bernadette. Thank you so much.
Bernadette Russell
[speaking over] It has been. Thank you.
Charles Adrian
I'm going to play the second track that I chose from your selection. And, yeah, there were so many tracks that I could have chosen. But I like this one already and I think it'll be a nice ending. This is Tom Waits singing Tom Traubert's Blues (Four Sheets to the Wind in Copenhagen). [laughs] What a title! Thank you.
Bernadette Russell
Thank you.
Music
[Tom Traubert's Blues (Four Sheets to the Wind in Copenhagen) by Tom Waits]
[Initial transcription by https://otter.ai]