Find Page One on APPLE PODCASTS or STITCHER.
SCROLL DOWN FOR EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Episode image is a detail of a photo by Charles Adrian
Still struggling to understand the new lockdown arrangements for England announced on the evening of Sunday the 9th of May, 2020, Charles Adrian reintroduces his listeners to four books given to him by guests on the podcast.
At intervals throughout this rather long episode you might hear some banging in the background, which was coming through the wall from one of Charles Adrian’s neighbours. Apologies for this.
Correction: When Charles Adrian talks about spondees in this episode, he should be talking about trochees. You can read about trochees on Wikipedia here and about spondees here. Also, the book by James Frey that Charles Adrian calls A Thousand Tiny Little Pieces is in fact called A Million Little Pieces.
Christie Malry’s Own Double Entry by B. S. Johnson is also discussed in Page One 106.
According to the Merriam Webster online dictionary, “sphacelate” means “to become gangrenous”. You can read the full definition here.
OutThere Magazine: The Style Issue, the magazine both edited by and given to Charles Adrian by Uwern Jong, is discussed in Page One 29 and Page One 163.
You can read about the James Frey memoir controversy, which dates back to 2006, on Wikipedia here.
You can find out more about Count From Zero To One Hundred by Alan Cunningham at the Penned In The Margins website here.
A transcript of this episode is below.
Books discussed in this episode were previously discussed in Page One 38, Page One 39 and Page One 40.
Episode recorded: 11th May, 2020.
Episode released: 23rd June, 2020.
Book listing:
Christie Malry’s Own Double Entry by B. S. Johnson (Page One 38 and Page One 106)
Count From Zero To One Hundred by Alan Cunningam (Page One 39)
Fragenbogen by Max Frisch (Page One 40)
Brunelleschi’s Dome by Ross King (Page One 40)
Links:
James Frey memoir controversy on Wikipedia
Count From Zero To One Hundred by Alan Cunningham via Penned In The Margins
Episode transcript:
Jingle
You're listening to Page One, the book podcast.
Charles Adrian
Hello, and welcome to the 166th Page One. I'm Charles Adrian and this is the 10th Page One In Review. Thank you very much for joining me today.
It's Tuesday the 12th of May, 2020. The historical information would be that many of us in England are still trying to understand the new lockdown arrangements that were announced on Sunday evening. They apply only to people in England. Although they were announced by the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, he was apparently speaking in his capacity as Prime Minister of England. The devolved powers - Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland - have their own lockdown arrangements which haven't changed and which are, in my opinion, less confusing and less nonsensical. But I don't want to go into that.
What I feel more comfortable talking about, I think, is the weather as ever. It's been a lovely day today. [laughing] Very nice and sunny this morning and quite warm in the sunshine. The air is cool and it's now overcast so it's feeling a little chilly this evening but... but calm. And, you know, after a couple of days... we've had some really windy days - Sunday, Monday, very strong wind - I'm... I'm noticing... So I'm... I'm growing some plants outside... It's the first time that I've tried to grow plants outside for well over ten years. I think the last time that I tried to grow a plant outside was probably, yes, more like fifteen years ago or even... even longer ago. I'm not very good at growing plants inside either but... Yeah, I've been noticing how much water they need on different days and remembering that, you know, a win... a windy day will make them just as thirsty as a sunny day does. You know, I'd expect to have to water them more on a hot sunny day but the wind also... you know, it... it moves everything around, doesn't it, and it dries... it dries these poor plants out. So I've been, yes, tending to them.
It's been reminding me of perhaps the only successful experiment that I did when I was studying biology at school years and years ago. I didn't... I didn't do very well with biological experiments - they were much too messy, the results never quite arranged themselves on the graph in the way that the textbook suggested that they should do. But this one... I don't know if perhaps you did this experiment as well: You take a plant - something with leaves, I think, preferably - and attach it to a pipe or a... you know, a glass tube - that might be a pipette, I suppose; it doesn't have a bulb on the end... but, anyway, the glass bit - long glass tube which has water in it and... and an air bubble. And the air bubble is very important because you then subject the plant to different conditions. So I think you just... you leave it alone and see what happens to the air bubble and then you... you heat it and you see what happens to the air bubble and then you blow air at it and you see what happens to the air bubble. And my memory is that actually blowing air at it was the... was, you know, the best way to make the air bubble move really fast up the tube. You know, suggesting that there's a lot of water coming out of the plant at the top because of the air moving which makes it suck more air up fr - water, sorry - up from the... yeah, the pipe. The tube. Whatever. The pipette. I don't know. So, yeah, that's been in my head over the last couple of days.
I've got four books for you today.
[page turning]
The first book that I wanted to talk to you about... So, yes, for anyone listening for the first time, Page One In Review - these episodes - are essentially me talking about all of the books that I've been given by guests on my podcast over the last eight years. We're... We're talking about episodes that went out in 2013. This book was given to me by James Ross during the 38th Page One. We recorded that at a pub called The Bell in Aldgate. I haven't been to Aldgate for a long time. I don't know if The Bell is still there. I think it was quite a nice pub but noisy and I'm not sure if the episode is very easy to decipher, you know if you listen to it now. But the book is called Christie Mallory's... Christie... Sorry, Christie Malry's... Christie Malry's... That's an interesting... is that a spondee? Or a...? Oh, I never was very good at scansion. It's not an iamb, is it, because iamb is ‘tuh TUM’ [with emphasis on second beat] and this is ‘TUM ti’ [with emphasis on first beat]. Christie Malry's... TUM ti, TUM ti... Christie Malry's Own Double Entry. TUM ti, TUM ti, TUM, TUM ti, TUM ti. Yeah, it's quite pleasing, isn't it? It's by B. S. Johnson.
Yeah, I don't... I don't remember what happens in this book. And, listen, I'm as embarrassed as you are that I remember so little about these books. If you've... If you've been listening to these Page One In Reviews you'll know that up till now... I think... I was just going to try and estimate a percentage of books that I remember the... the plots of. It's about five percent, isn't it, probably. Or, I don't know, it might be higher. But it's pretty low. I don't remember the plots of many of these books. So I can't say very much about it. But just looking through it to find something to read for you now, it's very funny and I can see that it's... I can understand why James Ross would have wanted to give it to me. Yeah. Let me just read from it now. I'm reading from page 33, 34 and 35 of this Picador edition of the book which has 187 pages including The Final Reckoning.
‘Why is a funeral necessary?’ asked Christie.
’It is customary,’ said the Undertaker.
’I know it is customary,’ said Christie, ‘but why is it necessary?’
’It has always gone on,’ replied the Undertaker, ‘and it always will go on.’
I wish I were capable of such faith, though Christie. And he will have to sue me for his account. What can he do if I refuse to pay? Were my mother not being cremated, he could threaten to dig her up again. As it is, he is perhaps limited to doing something unpleasant with her ashes.
Christie was the only mourner, economy as to relatives (as to so many other things) being one of the virtues of this novel. The Reverend paid to perform the ceremony sang lustily and unembarrassed by himself (he had done it before) to Christie's uncomfortable stare. The coffin slid jerkily away through the low oak doors bound for the NTGB holocaust. As Christie turned into the aisle and went towards the door it was to find that the Reverend had doubled round through some back passage quickly enough to be able to offer his condolences to the departing bereaved. Christie remembered his fee at this point; that is, he remembered that the Undertaker's estimate had included a fee for the Reverend. Christie smiled at the thought that the Reverend mistakenly thought he was going to be paid. The Reverend, encouraged of course, smiled back and pressed into Christie's hand, by way of valediction, a leaflet.
When my time comes, thought Christie, if it ever does...
Christie gave directions to his Undertaker that the single wreath was to be disposed of by being offered not to a hospital but to the nearest branch of the People's Dispensary for Sick Animals (if it was still called that) there to be fed if possible to a sphacelated goat. The Undertaker solemnly undertook responsibility for the execution of this last request of Christie's mother, who had been unreasonably fond of goats.
The Reverend's leaflet was a Newsletter to all those (both of them? thought Christie) who worshipped regularly at the Anglican Church of St Jude, Hammersmith. Christie read it, on the sofa that was now his, when he reached home, noting how heedless was the Reverend in his too frequent use of the typewriter exclamation mark formed (unsatisfactorily) by an apostrophe over a full stop. There were also a number of spelling and grammatical errors for which Christie forgave the Reverend. Then he went over to the bureau that was also now his, took out some lilac notepaper and wrote the following letter to the Borough of Hammersmith Weights and Measures Department:26 [sic] Mall Road
London W6
Dear Sirs:
re St Jude's Church
You will note that the organisation publishing the enclosed leaflet claims to have ‘the answer to all problems, personal, political and international.’
I would be grateful if you would check up on [sic] the factual accuracy of this claim and, if you find it to be in any way false or exaggerated, I trust you will institute proceedings under the relevant section of the Trade Descriptions Act.
Yours sincerely,
Christie Malry
There you go. That was a chapter called In which a Goat is Succoured. It's chapter four of Christie Malry's Own Double Entry. Yes, what a rotter Christie Malry seems to be. But amusing. I did look up what ‘sphacelated’ means. A couple of days ago I was, unusually, preparing for this episode and I thought: “Oh, I should probably know what ‘sphacelated’...” - well, not that I felt like I should have known but that I should know, for the sake of perhaps explaining to you, what ‘sphacelated’ might mean, and I've forgotten. [laughing] It was something... yeah, it was something that animals apparently are sometimes. Anyway. You can perhaps look it up.
[page turning]
The second book that I want to talk to you about is called Count From Zero To One Hundred and is unique, I think, among the books that I've been given by my guests in that it is the only book that was given to me by the person who wrote it. Obviously, I was given a magazine by Uwern Jong, my guest on the 29th Page One, and he'd edited the magazine but he didn't write... you know, he hadn't written much of it. This was written in its entirety by Alan Cunningham, who was my guest on the 39th Page One. Also unique among Page One episodes in that it's the only one to be described as Page One Live. The idea was that we were going to do a live event at the Wilton Way Cafe in Hackney. So that's where the 39th Page One was recorded. It's the last episode ever to have been recorded at the Wilton Way Cafe in Hackney. So, yeah, a landmark in that sense as well. We performed, as it were... So we didn't... So it didn't go out live - it wasn't streamed - it was recorded as live and I don't think I edited it. I mean, I must have topped and tailed it but... Yeah. We had an audience of Anna Sulan Masing, who was my guest on the 27th Page One, and then, towards the end of the event, Paula Varjack, who was later my guest on the 53rd Page One. So it was a much more intimate event than we'd been imagining. But I... yes, I very much enjoyed meeting Alan and I enjoyed talking about books with him. And not least talking about his book Count From Zero To One Hundred.
It's... it's interesting in that... So it's described as a novella but there is a disclaimer in the front saying “This is somewhat a work of fiction”, which... I like that. It's... It's not a memoir but it's also... he's not pretending that it's not in some way drawn from real life or may have been drawn from real life or inspired by or... He says:
Any resemblance to actual events or locales or persons, living or dead, is perhaps entirely coincidental, but then again, perhaps it is not.
I think it was probably published around the time or not long after there was quite a lot of discussion about what memoir meant in the wake of a controversy generated by... James Frey? Is that his name? Who wrote... oh, and I always get the title of his book wrong too... A Thousand Tiny Little Pieces is how I remember it. That was described as a memoir and Oprah Winfrey championed it on her show. And then it was... And then it came out that he'd made up parts of it. And there was a lot of upset and he had to go back on Oprah Winfrey's show and apologise. Yeah. I don't know whether that's what Alan is playing with here.
But it is a series of... I don't even know what to call them. I think... From what he writes in the introduction, I think he wrote a section a day. They may... Yeah, they may well have been edited later or he may have cherry-picked bits and pieces to arrange them. I don't know. But, yes, there are longer sections and shorter sections and each section is numbered. It's the sort of book that you can open at almost any page and find something to provoke thoughts, ideas, dreams. And I've feeling that you could probably read the sections in almost any order. I'm just going to read you three sections taken more or less at random but they are three sections that I... that I quite like. Short sections. The whole thing is 204... sorry, 205 pages long. It's actually 89... Although it's called Count From Zero To One Hundred it goes from 1 to 89, so the last section is section 89. This is published by Penned In The Margins. Section 3 on page 25 goes as follows:
I start to shake - my whole body shakes - after I have written down something true. Things are falling apart, perhaps, my body knows, is constantly prepared, the shaking is a sign, things must be wrapped tighter, must be made more secure. I remember this shaking, something from my youth, unexplainable.
She said that I shook while I slept next to her; that I shook violently.
Then section 31, which is on page 85:
Let me be a body and let that body direct its energy appropriately. Do not burden - do not confuse - my mind with words, with meaningless words, or, if words are to be used - if it is that they must be - let them be completely new words, fit for new purpose, my purpose, my body.
And then section 60 on page 145:
I hear him say, from the comfort of my bedroom, the following words: 'beautiful creature', but I have no clear idea to whom he is referring, knowing only that he talks about a girl - of course - and is looking for destruction. He asked me on the U-Bahn for some examples of interesting things to say to a woman, with a view to penetration. While I considered this request I realised that he had discovered that one could quite easily utilise the windows of the train as a mirror.
•
And then I think - for it is with us always - and what, again, is jealousy, and I think, well, it is only a kind of sentimentality, a suffering that we feel, without, perhaps, having suffered, an imposition that we make on life of that character who we so often wish to be, if only, I think, because it requires nothing but passivity: the martyr.
There you go. Yeah. So there's quite a lot about the body and a lot about how we fit in the world and encountering people and how they make us feel and how they seem to us. Yeah, it's really nice. Look it up. I'm sure you can still buy that online. Count From Zero To One Hundred by Alan Cunningham.
And... So I said about that that you can find something interesting on almost any page, something provoking...
[page turning]
... my next book is... is the same and was given to me in that spirit. My third and fourth book were both given to me by the same person, Gabriele Wappel, during the 40th Page One. This was the book that she brought that she liked. It's Fragenbogen by Max Frisch. ‘Fragenbogen’ I think probably means ‘questionnaire’. My German is so much worse than it was in 2013 [laughing] so... and I haven't... I haven't read all the way through this book. I think Gabriele gave it to me just with the idea that I might flick through it sometimes. I think she enjoyed flicking through it and finding a page and being inspired by some of the questions. I've been flicking through this over the last couple of days and I realise that I'm not in the mood to answer questions at the moment and a lot of them irritate me. I think because they require a lot of effort. I have to [laughing] really think about the answers.
There... It's also... I mean, it's not... it's not written to be applicable to everybody. The ‘I’ in this book... or the - sorry, not the ‘I’ - the ‘you’ in this book, the person who is being asked these questions, is very much a man and is definitely straight and is married and has children. You know, there are questions like “Would you like a rich wife?” or “How do you feel about being a father” and there are... you know, there are no corresponding questions for anybody who wouldn't fit that profile. But I did find a page that I would enjoy reading from today. It... Yeah, it's... I don't know if I have any answers for these questions but I thought they were interesting questions.
This edition of Fragenbogen is... is published by Suhrkamp Taschenbuch... I think. There are eleven questionnaires taking up... so altogether 93 pages. Each questionnaire is twenty-five questions. I'm going to read you the first five questions of questionnaire number VII. I'll try... I'll read it in German. Well, I’ll read each question in German and then try to translate them. I haven't looked up any of the words that I don't understand. Why did I not look up the words that I don't understand? I don't know. I didn't do it. So this is page 55. Question number 1:
Halten Sie sich für einen guten Freund?
So that I understand to mean: “Do you think of yourself as a good friend?” Which, by itself, I think is... [laughing] I mean that question would keep me busy for hours. Number 2:
Was empfinden Sie als Verrat:
And I think ‘Verrat’ means ‘betrayal’ and I'm thinking ‘empfinden’... I'm just assuming it means something like ‘what would you consider?’ So: “What would you consider to be betrayal?”
a. wenn der... wenn der andere es tut?
So: “a. when the other one does it?” Or:
b. wenn Sie es tun?
“b. when you do it." So, yeah: “What do you think... What... What do you consider to be betrayal? Is it when somebody else does it or when you do it?” That's my understanding of that question. I think that's... that's a less interesting question to me but might be interesting for you listening. 3:
Wie viele Freunde haben sie zur Zeit?
So: “How many friends do you have right now?” Some people will find that easier to answer than others. It's... For me, it brings up all kinds of questions about what... what is a friend? I mean, just, you know, try to organise some kind of party like... you know, like a wedding. A few episodes ago I was talking about my older sister's wedding and obviously that made me think about: what would I do - not for the first time - what would I do if I got married? Who would I invite? Who would make the list and who wouldn't? So, anyway, that's what that question brings up for me. 4:
Halten Sie die Dauer einer Freundschaft…
… and then in brackets…
…(Unverbrüchlichkeit) für eine [sic] Wertmaß der Freundschaft?
So that I understand to mean... I'm not sure what ‘Unverbrüchlichkeit’ means. It might mean ‘unbrokenness’ but... [considering] Mmm... it might not. But: “Do you consider the length of a friendship to be a measure of its value?” I love that question. That's my favourite, [laughing] I think, of the questions. It's easy to answer for me: No, but... yes also. So, you know, it's complicated but... 5:
Was würden Sie einem Freund nicht verzeihen:
And I don't know what ‘verzeihen’ means. I like to imagine it might mean ‘forgive’ so: “What would you not forgive a friend for?”
a. Doppelzüngigkeit?
No idea what that means.
b. daß er Ihnen eine F... eine Frau ausspannt?
So there's the heterosexuality and the maleness coming in. So: “that he” - I think - “steals a woman from you?”
c. daß er Ihrer sicher ist?
What would that mean? “That he is sure... That he is sure of you?” Might be.
d. Ironie aus [sic] Ihnen gegenüber?
So: “Irony at your expense?” I think.
daß er keine Kritik verträgt?
I think that means that he can't handle being criticised.
daß er Personen, mit denen Sie sich verfeindet haben, durchaus schätzt und gerne mich... mit ihnen verkehrt?
I think that means: “That he looks after or spends time with people that you are... you're enemies with.” I love that. I mean, I've definitely been friends with people who wouldn't have forgiven me being friends with people that they were no longer friends with. Or... or at least they found that very, very difficult. I think that's quite an interesting question to ask of oneself. But that's not really... The whole question is - well, as I understand it: “What would you not forgive [laughing] in a friend?”
Okay. So that's... Yeah, that's... Yeah. With with the disclaimer that none of that... you know, I might have mistranslated all of those. Although I'm pretty sure about question three - “Wie viele Freunde haben sie zur Zeit?” - “How many friends do you have right now?” That's the... yeah. That's the question that I'm most sure of the meaning of but probably not of the answer of. Okay. So yeah. That's... I mean, it's an interesting book and I might flick through it more but I just... as I say, right now, I don't... I don't have the concentration or the... yeah, free brain space for... for difficult questions. There are enough difficult questions floating about at the moment.
The other book that Gabriele gave me during the 40th Page One is Brunelleschi's Dome by Ross King. This is... It looks like a novel - so I don't know if somehow it's been published in a way that makes it look like it's going to be novel - but it's not. It's an account of the building of the dome of the cathedral of Santa Maria Fi... Fiore... Santa Mari... Santa Maria... Santa Maria del Fiore in... in Florence and it's fascinating. I really enjoyed this.
Yes. I'd never thought very much about how things like cathedral domes were built or how complicated that might be to do but, you know, having read this book, I now am full of admiration for people who manage to do the kind of mathematics and the kind of engineering and the kind of building that are necessary in order to... to construct a curved roof that holds itself - and not only holds itself when it's finished but holds itself during the process of being built. And these... You know, the dome of Santa Maria del Fiore, it's very high up and I think it was of a size or of a design - I don't remember the details now - that hadn't been done before. And I think Filippo Brunelleschi is the person who came up with the... the necessary techniques for... for building this dome. I think, flicking through it, the dome had been designed but nobody yet knew how the design was going to be realised. I think that's right.
So this is all happening in the thirteenth, fourteenth and presumably fifteenth centuries. “The... The foundation stone for the new cathedral had been laid in 1296,” it says on page five and Filippo is working in the summer of pa... of 1420, as you'll see when I read page 84. So, yeah, we all know that cathedrals take a long time to build but, again, what I hadn't appreciated is that you might start building a cathedral without having any idea how you're going to finish it. It's just wonderful.
So this is... I'm going to read you from chapter 10, which is called The Pointed Fifth. This is... So from pages 82, 83 and 84 of this Penguin edition of Brunelleschi's Dome. It has 167 pages. Here we go. So:
IN A.D. 148 THE ROMAN hydraulic engineer Nonius Datus was sent to the town of Saldae in Algeria and instructed by its governor to build an aqueduct through the middle of a mountain. Nonius duly surveyed the mountain, executed plans and cross sections, calculated the axis of the tunnel, and then supervised two gangs of experienced tunnelers as they began their excavations, each at a different end. Thereupon he returned to Rome, satisfied that the operation was progressing smoothly. Four years later, however, he received an urgent summons to Saldae. Upon arriving he discovered the population of the parched town in a despondent mood: the two teams excavating the tunnel had each accidentally deviated to the right and therefore failed to meet in the middle. Nonius managed to rectify the situation, but had he arrived a little later, he observed, the mountain would have possessed two tunnels instead of one.
This anecdote is related in On Aqueducts, a work written by Sextus Julius Frontinus, the chief water engineer of Rome and onetime governor of Britain. Lost for many centuries, the treatise was discovered at Monte Cassino in the 1420s by the manuscript hunter Poggio Bracciolini. The tale of Nonius and his errant tunnellers must have been a source of chastening reflection for the builders of the cupola...
The cupola, by the way, is the dome of the cathedral...
... who had been faced with a similar constructional problem - that is, how would it be possible for eight teams of masons, each working on one side of the dome, to raise their separate walls so that they would all converge at the top?
One of the keys to raising the dome was the precise calculation and measurement of each horizontal layer of brick or stone as it was added in a gradually contracting sequence. But how would these measurements be taken? How could the curvature of the eight individual walls be controlled during the process of construction? The difficulty was made even more acute by the fact that each wall had to incorporate two shells rising in tandem, as well as their supporting ribs. A deviation of only several inches in one of these ribs - each of which was over 100 feet in length - meant that the connection, like that at Saldae, would not be achieved.
The teams of masons at work on the dome had certain basic measuring devices at their disposal. Most of these had not changed significantly for a thousand years. For checking the perpendicularity of walls, for example, they used a plumb line: a string on which a weight, usually a ball of lead, was suspended. The string would be braided like a fishing line to prevent the weight from rotating in the breeze. And to ensure the stones were laid in perfectly horizontal courses or layers, a mason's level was employed. This instrument was shaped like the letter A: a plumb line hung from its apex, while the horizontal crosspiece was inscribed with a graduated scale. The plumb line would come to rest in the center of the crosspiece when the stone or brick was on a level plane.
As they are neither perpendicular nor horizontal, vaults such as arches and domes obviously demanded a more complex system of measurement. The master builders of the Gothic cathedrals regulated the curvature of such structures by first plotting them full-scale, like a giant set of blueprints, on to special tracing floors. These floors were covered in plaster of Paris onto which life-size geometrical designs of, say, a vault's ribs would be drawn. Once these drawings were complete, carpenters used them to devise the wooden templates from which the stone for the ribs was shaped by the masons working at the quarry. The gypsum floor was afterward wiped clear and the next set of drawings incised into its surface. If facilities for tracing floors did not exist, an area of ground would be cleared and the designs sketched in the soil. In 1395, for example, the plan for the timber trusses of the roof at Westminster Hall were set out on a patch of ground near Farnham in Surrey.
It was this latter method to which Filippo resorted in the summer of 1420. Downstream from Florence he had a large area of the Arno's bank leveled, an expanse roughly half a mile every direction, and in the sand he traced a full-scale plan of the dome. It is most likely that the templates for each of the eight vertical ribs were made from this enormous geometrical design. These models, cut from pine, were eight and a half feet in length and roughly two feet wide. Sheets of iron were used to stiffen them and prevent their warping. They were fitted onto the outside wall of the inner shell, allowing them to serve as guides for both shells, which were built with identical inclinations. Moved progressively upward as the dome rose, they ensured that the eight massive ribs would ultimately converge at the level of the fourth stone ring. In order for these ribs to serve as guides for the rest of the dome's vertical curvature, they were built first: that is, only after several courses of the bricks for the ribs were laid did the masons begin filling in the intermediate sections.
There you go. And the chapter continues describing the various complications involved in getting the curvature right and also arguments between people involved in the building of the... of the dome itself. Yeah. That's wonderful. Brunelleschi's Dome by Ross King.
Right. I'm going to finish now. I'm very hungry for some reason and feeling a little lightheaded as a result. Nevertheless, it's been a pleasure to talk to you today. Thank you very much for listening. Until next time. Bye.
Jingle
Thank you for listening to Page One. For more information about the podcast, please go to pageonepodcast.com.
[Initial transcription by https://otter.ai]